What If There Is No God?

[aric]

I've been cruising the net and I came across an interesting phenomenon. Some Christians say that if there was really no God, then life would have no meaning and they wouldn't bother being good moral people any more.

Has anyone here met someone who thought that? Do some of you here think that?

If there was no God, would it still make sense to be a decent and moral person?

- Aric

[Deleted]

aric said:

I've been cruising the net and I came across an interesting phenomenon. Some Christians say that if there was really no God, then life would have no meaning and they wouldn't bother being good moral people any more.

Has anyone here met someone who thought that? Do some of you here think that?

If there was no God, would it still make sense to be a decent and moral person?

- Aric

My actions are based on my own personal system of ethics. I don't act in ways that would harm others because I know how I would feel if I were harmed.

[Quickstride]

Well, I don't think that life has any meaning beyond the possibility of a "higher power"- we're just organic lifeforms on a small planet in the cosmic middle of nowhere, after all- but unless a person is confident that they'll be fine without the shelter of society, there are plenty of pragmatic reasons for behaving in some sort of ethical or moral fashion- it will usually make society more bearable for everyone. It's like the "neutral" alignment as described in the Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook- neutral characters have no particular affiliation with "good" or "evil" philosophies, but they tend to prefer good to evil because being on good terms with others is better than being on bad terms with them.

-Quickstride, who normally plays neutral characters

[Rosa]

If there was no God then we would be like animals. We would have no promise of eternal life after death. There would be no worry about whether we would have to spend eternity in the tortures of hell or whether we would have the gift of abundant life with Christ in heaven.

Would it still make sense to be a decent and moral person? Well, animals have consciences and instincts. Since without God we would be like animals, we would still have instincts and consciences. If a person chooses to do evil for long enough, he would become hard and calloused to his conscience and that is where he would get to the point of not caring about good and upright morals anymore.

I think it would all depend on the individual whether they would care about being moral and upright or not.

[Barry]

rosa said:

If there was no God then we would be like animals. We would have no promise of eternal life after death. There would be no worry about whether we would have to spend eternity in the tortures of hell or whether we would have the gift of abundant life with Christ in heaven.

Would it still make sense to be a decent and moral person? Well, animals have consciences and instincts. Since without God we would be like animals, we would still have instincts and consciences. If a person chooses to do evil for long enough, he would become hard and calloused to his conscience and that is where he would get to the point of not caring about good and upright morals anymore.

I think it would all depend on the individual whether they would care about being moral and upright or not.

I couldn't have said it any better Rosa.
Though I'm a Christian, I get thoughts like that
from time to time when I'm down or hurt. You wouldn't believe
the questions that come to my mind either.
Then I just go to one of my Christian friends for
encouragement. Talk about it. I found talking about
it helps.

Cya,

[Kovik]

What, does that mean that atheists don't act morally? I'm one myself, and it's just good common sense that dictates my morality. I don't need a god to know right from wrong.

[Barry]

Whatever floats yer boat dude.

[Kovik]

I just resent the fact that the original statement implies that only those who believe in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim god have morals. (And also on the behalf of all other religions that do not believe in your god.)

[aric]

toki said:

My actions are based on my own personal system of ethics. I don't act in ways that would harm others because I know how I would feel if I were harmed.

Yeah, the Golden Rule. A fairly common principle if Wikipedia is to be believed. It's a rather simple and elegant example as to why decency and good behavior can transcend any particular religion or theology and appeals to moralists in general.

I also like Quickstride's explanation as to why there are practical reasons why being a good person makes sense.

kovik said:

What, does that mean that atheists don't act morally? I'm one myself, and it's just good common sense that dictates my morality. I don't need a god to know right from wrong.

. . . .

I just resent the fact that the original statement implies that only those who believe in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim god have morals. (And also on the behalf of all other religions that do not believe in your god.)

A lot of folks in this country take it to be that way.

I recall seeing a survey (for the love of porn, I can't seem to remember who did it or what the exact numbers were), but it showed a suprisingly large minority of Christians in America who said that if they found out that God didn't exist, then they would feel free to do whatever the hell they wanted (steal, rape, murder, etc.).

I can't tell whether this is because they would no longer fear the consequences of being divinely held accountable for their actions, or because their particular definitions of morality are so tied up with believing in God, that suddenly removing Him from the equation would remove a lot of their basis for morality.

Check out this thread I started a while ago. It asks the question of whether good deeds are considered good because God says so, or whether God deems actions to be right because they are right. The first premise essentially says that whatever God says is right is right is right is right and so on and so on, while the second one says that actions are considered good by reasons independant of human and divine subjective judgement.

The people who go for the first premise are, I think, the ones more likely to go nuts if they were somehow convinced that God doesn't exist. After all, when the sole source of morality (at least for them) suddenly does not exist, then for them morality is a sham.

This is somewhat proven by the people who say that atheists aren't moral simply because they don't believe in God. When you deny God, you deny morality, since, in their minds, the two concepts are essentially one and the same.

- Aric

[Quickstride]

Well, I think that even in the absence of religion, people aren't comfortable with the idea that they are meaningless and will "invent" meaning through other philosophies instead (A neutral "alignment," so to speak, will probably prevent you from going around murdering anyone who makes you mad, but there's no reason to do anything good if it doesn't somehow benefit you.) If you take away this meaning for them, they will probably be just as lost as a Christian whose moral foundation was based on God. I've met several secular humanists who, although otherwise rational people, will fight vehemently against anything that suggests that humans aren't "special" in the ways they believe them to be- even if science and logic are against them. After all, these notions of uniqueness are what they've built their ethical and moral systems upon- if you take that away, what do they have left?

[Stiletto]

Now, I am not an atheist. I was, up until recently, and things changed in my life, and I became a believer. In the old Norse pantheon of Gods, in particular, but that's not important. The point is, I behaved myself as an atheist because I believed in my heart that doing good deeds was A) the key to making the planet and the society a better place. B) that is was simply the right way to treat other people. C) because I am not a mean or nasty person and D) because frankly, I fear my parents' wrath more than that of any supernatural deistic being. I'd be more afraid of what they would do if I say, got drunk at a party and killed someone in a car crash. Even now, as a believer, I don't particularly worry about the fate of my eternal soul or anything. I just try to live as good a life as I possibly can so that others here on Earth will think well of me. Someone once asked me when I was younger, how do you want people to remember you? And I answered, "I basically just want everyone who knew me to say that I was one of the nicest people they ever met." Don't know how close to accomplishing that I am, but the search for personal betterment never hurt anyone. If you've still got to hammer into people's head the idea of punishment in another life to make them behave in this one, there's something wrong. Not with the belief, but with the people.

[Vira Redclaw]

I have had too many things happen already to prove to me (and I'm not saying these things should or will prove it to anyone else. They just proved it to me) that there is a God.

However, if I was ever convinced that there wasn't a God (which I hope never happens), then I hope I would continue to live a moral life. I believe a person should live morally whether there is or isn't a God. People who say they would feel free to do whatever they want if they knew there wasn't a God, in my opinion, are already doomed to eternal Hell because God knows their hearts.

If they're following God just because they want to save their lives, then they're doing it for the wrong reasons and this is stated several times in the Bible. They're supposed to follow God and do what He asks of them because they love Him, not because the only other option is going to Hell.

That's like saying: "Oh, I'll do my chores, but only because if I don't do my chores, I won't get to go to that concert next week. Otherwise, if that concert wasn't coming up, I'd do whatever the heck I wanted to."

That isn't devotion or doing something out of love or respect.

On the subject of Athiests. I agree, I have had an athiest friend (in Drama class) and he was REALLY nice and funny and moral. Athiests are people like everyone else and you get a bad few in every lot.

Even in Christians. My family and I have had traumatic run-ins with supposed 'Christians'.

That's my opinion anyway. *shrugs*

[Azonthus]

I know that, if my faith was ripped away from me and it was proven without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus did not exist, my life would loose a LOT of its meaning. I'd probably become very depressed for a long, long time and have to go through a process of reestablishing who I am and why I do what I do. Jesus and my salvation are such large parts of my life that I’d be lost without them. Now, I am not saying that I’d suddenly become a cussing *chocolate* without my savior. I’m just not the kind of person who cusses, lies, steals, cheats, kills, or does ‘bad’ things in general. It’s not who I am.

Still, I know deep in my heart that God is there and that I have a very personal relationship with Him. Like Vira said, too much has happened in my life to prove to me that He exists and loves me for me to not believe in him. I only wish (and pray) you could know Him with the same certainty that I do.

But, to pose a very logical question that I know you have most likely come across before, what if there is a God and you don’t trust in Him? If God exists, and you live and act as if he doesn’t, you’re in for a very bad surprise in the afterlife. If God does not exist, and you are trusting in him for eternal life and act according to your perceptions of his wishes, then there will be no consequences in the afterlife because there will be no afterlife.

[aric]

admin said:

I know that, if my faith was ripped away from me and it was proven without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus did not exist, my life would loose a LOT of its meaning. I'd probably become very depressed for a long, long time and have to go through a process of reestablishing who I am and why I do what I do. Jesus and my salvation are such large parts of my life that I’d be lost without them. Now, I am not saying that I’d suddenly become a cussing *chocolate* without my savior. I’m just not the kind of person who cusses, lies, steals, cheats, kills, or does ‘bad’ things in general. It’s not who I am.

In other words, you're a good person not because someone threatens you with punishment for not being so, but because you've internalized morality and know that being good can be an end in and of itself. Excellent.

I don't know whether I should start another thread or not, but do Christians here think there's a fundamental difference between the morality of the Old Testament and that of the New Testament? Specifically, those parts of the NT with Jesus. See, from my generalized point of view, the OT was about fear of God and punishment, strict and absolute laws, and such. In other words, it operated on the principle of legalism, while Jesus' message was based on a truly internalized moral code, i.e. love one another, treat others as you would have others treat you, etc. Am I wrong in viewing Biblical morality this way? I mean, I know there's nasty stuff in the NT as well (a lot of which was carried over from the OT, I think), but I want to concentrate on the different underlying principles of Jeses himself rather than those who spoke for him after he died.

admin said:

Still, I know deep in my heart that God is there and that I have a very personal relationship with Him. Like Vira said, too much has happened in my life to prove to me that He exists and loves me for me to not believe in him. I only wish (and pray) you could know Him with the same certainty that I do.

Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to know that there's someone looking out for me and that I'll see the people I love and care about after I die. But the thing is, I'm too skeptical for that. IMO, wanting to believe in something doesn't make it real. There's no proof for God outside of human imagination, specious reasoning, and superstition, IMO. Not that there isn't necessarily anything beyond current human perception and knowledge, but I don't put too much faith in people's personal revelations. In this case, it's people I don't trust. Especially when it comes to something so fantastic.

admin said:

But, to pose a very logical question that I know you have most likely come across before, what if there is a God and you don’t trust in Him?

You mean if he's the God as portrayed in the OT and some parts of the NT? That God I wouldn't trust.

admin said:

If God exists, and you live and act as if he doesn’t, you’re in for a very bad surprise in the afterlife.

I suppose that would depend on whether he's vain and childish enough to punish people for not believing in him. If he is, I wouldn't bother with him anyway. That's not the kind of God I'd follow, if there were any.

admin said:

If God does not exist, and you are trusting in him for eternal life and act according to your perceptions of his wishes, then there will be no consequences in the afterlife because there will be no afterlife.

Then I guess the joke's on the believer, if that were the case.

- Aric

[Quickstride]

I hope that I'm not straying too far off topic, but I wanted to reply to some of this.

aric said:

I don't know whether I should start another thread or not, but do Christians here think there's a fundamental difference between the morality of the Old Testament and that of the New Testament? Specifically, those parts of the NT with Jesus. See, from my generalized point of view, the OT was about fear of God and punishment, strict and absolute laws, and such. In other words, it operated on the principle of legalism, while Jesus' message was based on a truly internalized moral code, i.e. love one another, treat others as you would have others treat you, etc. Am I wrong in viewing Biblical morality this way? I mean, I know there's nasty stuff in the NT as well (a lot of which was carried over from the OT, I think), but I want to concentrate on the different underlying principles of Jeses himself rather than those who spoke for him after he died.

Well, I'm no Biblical scholar, but it seems that most of the parts of the Bible people take issue with are in the OT.

aric said:

Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to know that there's someone looking out for me and that I'll see the people I love and care about after I die. But the thing is, I'm too skeptical for that. IMO, wanting to believe in something doesn't make it real. There's no proof for God outside of human imagination, specious reasoning, and superstition, IMO. Not that there isn't necessarily anything beyond current human perception and knowledge, but I don't put too much faith in people's personal revelations. In this case, it's people I don't trust. Especially when it comes to something so fantastic.

Personally, I'm a huge science enthusiast, and when I look around at the marvels of the universe, and at the wacky stuff upon this planet alone, I actually find it quite easy to believe that anything is possible. That's hardly a scientific argument, and not a ringing endorsement of anything, but it does remove some of the human element and provide a "maybe" that doesn't necessarily go against the scientific knowledge I find so fascinating. In the end, I don't find it important to hold a strong, "I'm going to force this upon everyone I meet" opinion either way. (People get so mad at me when I say that!)

aric said:

You mean if he's the God as portrayed in the OT and some parts of the NT? That God I wouldn't trust.


I suppose that would depend on whether he's vain and childish enough to punish people for not believing in him. If he is, I wouldn't bother with him anyway. That's not the kind of God I'd follow, if there were any.

Well, when you consider how we humans treat "lower" animals, even the God of the OT doesn't seem that unreasonable- the only difference is that our species is no longer the one holding the power. It may not be fair and it may be childish, but then, by the same token we're a pretty unfair and childish species ourselves, believing that anything that doesn't share our genetic code can be exploited for food or pets or research. Of course there are people who disagree with these things, but as a society we generally justify them because we feel that a greater "good" is being obtained (usually in favor of our species. By the way, I'm not necessarily arguing against the way we treat animals, although I would like to see some changes, but that's way off topic.) It really puts things into perspective, and calls to mind that "Man created in the image of God" thing (or, as some would say, "God created in the image of Man...")

aric said:

Then I guess the joke's on the believer, if that were the case.

- Aric

Not really. The believer is dead and gone, and therefore can't know that s/he was wrong, and all of the non-believers who are also dead and gone can't point and laugh. Those of us who are alive obviously can't be certain either way, so we don't really count.

It's having there be an afterlife of some sort and following the wrong faith that could be a problem, but that's a risk we all take.