Pennsylvania Considers "Intelligent Design"

[aric]

Don't know if this belonged here. There's no dedicated News and Politics section...

CNN

Bill would allow 'intelligent design' in Pennsylvania schools

Tuesday, June 21, 2005; Posted: 10:13 a.m. EDT (14:13 GMT)

HARRISBURG, Pennsylvania (AP) -- Experts on both sides of the debate over whether public schools should teach "intelligent design" as an alternative to evolution -- a question already before a federal court -- sparred in front of a state legislative panel in Pennsylvania.

The House Subcommittee on Basic Education heard testimony Monday on a bill that would allow local school boards to mandate that science lessons include intelligent design, a concept that holds the universe must have been created by an unspecified guiding force because it is so complex.

The legislation is sponsored by only a dozen lawmakers, and its prospects of passing the General Assembly are unclear as lawmakers try to meet a June 30 state budget deadline.

But a federal judge will consider the issue this fall, when a lawsuit against the Dover Area School District is scheduled to go to trial. The suit alleges that the school board violated the constitutional separation of church and state when it voted in October to require ninth-grade students to hear about intelligent design during biology class.

Michael J. Behe, a biological sciences professor at Lehigh University, told the subcommittee that intelligent design has no religious underpinnings. Critics argue that it is a variation of creationism, the biblical-based view that regards God as the creator of life.

Behe said intelligent design merely contends that evidence of complex physical structures shows that design, rather than evolution, is responsible for an organism or cell.

Some lawmakers struggled to understand the concept.

"I've always viewed evolution as sort of the ultimate design. It would change and adapt and accommodate to whatever the situation was," said Rep. P. Michael Sturla. "When did the intelligent design occur, in your theory?"

Behe had no answer.

"Questions like, 'When did the designing take place?' ... are all good questions. We'd love to have answers for them, but they are separate questions from the question, 'Was this designed in the first place?"' Behe said.

The American Civil Liberties Union, one of the groups that filed the federal lawsuit, contends that allowing intelligent design to be taught would undermine the state's science standards, which specify the teaching of evolution.

"How many new biotechnology companies will want to locate here in Pennsylvania if our students are being taught a watered-down version of the complexities of evolution?" asked Larry Frankel, legislative director for the state's ACLU chapter.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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Well, that was funny. I especially liked this part:

Some lawmakers struggled to understand the concept.

"I've always viewed evolution as sort of the ultimate design. It would change and adapt and accommodate to whatever the situation was," said Rep. P. Michael Sturla. "When did the intelligent design occur, in your theory?"

Behe had no answer.

ROTFLMAO!!!

I guess some politicians aren't dumb after all! Of course, he labels it incorrectly. Evolution is not an "ultimate design," though he does get the mechanics correct.

And Behe's lame answer was this:

"Questions like, 'When did the designing take place?' ... are all good questions. We'd love to have answers for them, but they are separate questions from the question, 'Was this designed in the first place?"' Behe said.

He's all but admitting that Intelligent Design has absolutely no clue. The lawmaker was asking if his stuff was legit. Behe simply skipped around it.

I thought this was the clincher:

intelligent design, a concept that holds the universe must have been created by an unspecified guiding force because it is so complex.

An unspecified guiding force? Gee, what will the vast majority of people think this "force" is?

I'm also amazed that this Behe guy is a professor. How in the hell does this guy get a PhD and not know how science works? An unspecified freakin force? Since when did science deal with mysticism? This force could very well be the tooth fairy for all this Behe person knows.

Holy Crap!

- Aric

[Anonymous Yankee]

I'm from Pittsburgh PA. and they cut out the teaching of evolution altogether in all
of our schools.

[Stouthorn]

That's disgusting. They just don't teach it? Jesus Christ!

Here's why intelligent design works better than Creationism: though Behe is lying when he says it had no religious underpinnings, Intelligent Design has no specific religious underpinnings. The biggest problem with the idea of acknowledging creationism in schools, for me, has always been that Creationism is specifically geared toward the Judeochristian concept of Creation, that is, a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis. What, for example, is a Hindu child to do when Creationism comes up? At least Intelligent Design aknowledges religious diversity.

And, as far as I'm concerned, most schools already teach intelligent design. When my sixth grade biology teacher taught evolution, she prefaced the lesson by saying, "Many people believe differently, according to their religions, but these are the conclusions we've reached through science, and since this is a science class, this is what we will be learning. You are entitled to your religious beliefs, and I'm not trying to make you stop believing them, but it's important that in the study of biology you are at least familiar with the theory of evolution and how it works, even if you do not believe it."

Genius.

[Barry]

Yeah They don't teach it here in Carmichaels either. I saw on the local news that the whole state rejected it and went with Creation.

I saw a Friend of mine that has a kid that gos to school here.
The kid was doing his homework and the had a science textbook and it had some in it like the kind like the Caterpillar and the butterfly type but they took out the monkey to man
stuff and other stuff similar.

Oh well, What can I say.

P.S. It's still pending if I well temporary leave the boards.

[Stiletto]

See, it's not so much creationism itself that bothers me, it's when its supporters start p**sing and moaning and shoving over each other to be the first on the steps of the state courthouse to get it pushed into our science classrooms, where it has about as much right to be as a loaded gun. And the fact that there are schools that don't even teach evolution at all is a sad and sorry statement about the condition the US is in.

[Stouthorn]

How does one teach a biology class without evolution?

Well, I guess it's possible...

[Stiletto of the Bloodclaw]

Teaching a biology class and excluding evolution makes roughly about as much sense as teaching an english class, and telling the class that they don't neccesarily have to believe in grammar or syntax. It's completely

[Stiletto of the bloodclaw]

illogical. bloody enter key...

[Dwaggie]

English eh, I always hated that subject. Never was any good at it.

[Azonthus]

aric said:

Don't know if this belonged here. There's no dedicated News and Politics section...

Yup! This is where it belongs;)

aric said:

But a federal judge will consider the issue this fall, when a lawsuit against the Dover Area School District is scheduled to go to trial. The suit alleges that the school board violated the constitutional separation of church and state when it voted in October to require ninth-grade students to hear about intelligent design during biology class.

Can someone please point out the exact words "separation of church and state" in the constituion for me please? I'll be quiet about it if you can.

No evolution taught in Pa? Guess what, when I get married and have kids, we're moving to Pennsylvania! I've always thought it was a beautiful state, and it is where my boyfriend is from so he has family there... Yah, moving to PA is sounding pretty good.

Y'all know I'm a thorough and staunch creationist. It is possible to have a biology class without the evolution, I've been in them. I don't feel I was slighted in any way or that there is a huge hole in my education. I know what evolution is and why it couldn't work. Besides, the Bible says God created the heavens and the earth; that settles it whether I believe it or not. Time will be the ultimate proof of how the world started.

[aric]

admin said:

aric said:

Don't know if this belonged here. There's no dedicated News and Politics section...

Yup! This is where it belongs;)

It's kinda crowded to have four subjects in one forum. Maybe news and politics should be separate from theology and philosophy...

Just a suggestion....

admin said:

aric said:

But a federal judge will consider the issue this fall, when a lawsuit against the Dover Area School District is scheduled to go to trial. The suit alleges that the school board violated the constitutional separation of church and state when it voted in October to require ninth-grade students to hear about intelligent design during biology class.

Can someone please point out the exact words "separation of church and state" in the constituion for me please? I'll be quiet about it if you can.

It doesn't say explicitly that state and church should be separated. Here is the section:

First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Make no law respecting an establishment of religion. In other words, no theocratic tendencies. To me, this includes creationism is schools.

It's a religious notion that a mystical force intervenes to guide the actions and events of the natural world, not a scientific, naturalistic or secular one. Therefore, it has no business being the official line of the education system of the United States.

ID is probably a way to circumvent the first amendment since it's not explicit in saying God did it.

admin said:

No evolution taught in Pa? Guess what, when I get married and have kids, we're moving to Pennsylvania! I've always thought it was a beautiful state, and it is where my boyfriend is from so he has family there... Yah, moving to PA is sounding pretty good.

Dwaggie lives there. Hook up with him and throw a Dino-con in Pittsburg or Philadelphia. ;D

I always wanted to visit Ben Franklin's tomb.

- Aric

[Stouthorn]

admin said:

Can someone please point out the exact words "separation of church and state" in the constituion for me please? I'll be quiet about it if you can.

Are you implying that we've been wrong all along, and that church and state should, in fact, be linked? Otherwise, why challenge it?

admin said:

Y'all know I'm a thorough and staunch creationist. It is possible to have a biology class without the evolution, I've been in them.

Not a thorough one.

admin said:

I don't feel I was slighted in any way or that there is a huge hole in my education.

That's because you're perfectly content with that hole.

admin said:

I know what evolution is and why it couldn't work.

Enlighten us.

admin said:

Besides, the Bible says God created the heavens and the earth; that settles it whether I believe it or not.

Whether you believe what or not?

[Vorchia]

Talking about holes in people's education, the avoiding of those holes and education itself, how, when homeschooling do people avoid the child GETTING holes in their education? Are there methods or guidelines for homeschooling or specialized lesson materials?
I mean, I know that if I had to teach a child chemistry and biology, I'm good at that, it'd be fine. But I really suck at math and grammar, any child taught these things by ME, would have a serious problem. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is only good at some things and doesn't excell at everything. I realise (some?) my own faults but not everyone does and not all to the same extend, how do you compensate for the enthusiastic, loving and motivated parents who unfortunately can't teach or doesn't have the know how about certain subjects?
How is this problem being avoided? I know highschool is different then the kind of secondary school I've been in and comparable or slightly more difficult then the highest, hardest kind of secondary school we have. I KNOW I would fail and many with me as only ten percent or less make it to and through that level of highschool. Most people go through simpler secondary schools alas, the U.S. only has the one level, the hardest one. So if a parent has to homeschool, and reaches the level beyond their OWN mental abilities, then what?
If a kid is to be homeschooled, how to make sure the quality of education is at least as good as that of a professional teacher? Are there tests a few times a semester at an institution that looks over the homeschooling, supporting and helping the homeschooling families? I mean, to me it looks near impossible to do, it would make sense to me if there was a (government?) organisation to look over it?
I have always thought this homeschooling thing one of the strangest phenomena in the American culture. Its completely alien to me, I'll respect it but I have to stand and wonder as its well, an extremely unusual thing. Here it 'wouldn't even be legal, by law, a child in the Netherlands must attend to an official school untill the age of 16.
Besides, you NEED a diploma of your secondary school either to be able to find a job or to get into further education. A home printed 'diploma' signed by your mother wouldn't get you anywhere as mommy dear could have given you all those A's on the diploma out of love alone. So how DO you get a dimploma if you're being homeschooled? Can you take state exams or something?

Here everyone takes the same exams, and there are regulations about what the student has to know, based on that exams are made and in the biology exam, evolution IS a part of teh deal. I don't think there's anywhere in the Netherlands where you can get away without evolution. However, when I did my exam I got and A and there was no evolutionary question in it, just one about genetics. So any creationist could have gotten an A there too without having to use 'The E word'.

Oh the forum has four subjects because there WAS no news forum and then the London Attacks happened and I didn't know where to put it so I included 'news'. I'll split it up....

[aric]

vorchia said:

Talking about holes in people's education, the avoiding of those holes and education itself, how, when homeschooling do people avoid the child GETTING holes in their education? Are there methods or guidelines for homeschooling or specialized lesson materials?

I think each state has their own guidelines on how parents should homeschool their kids. Ultimately, they have to meet the standards to get a General Equivalency Degree, which is roughly like a high scool diploma.

vorchia said:

I mean, I know that if I had to teach a child chemistry and biology, I'm good at that, it'd be fine. But I really suck at math and grammar, any child taught these things by ME, would have a serious problem. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is only good at some things and doesn't excell at everything. I realise (some?) my own faults but not everyone does and not all to the same extend, how do you compensate for the enthusiastic, loving and motivated parents who unfortunately can't teach or doesn't have the know how about certain subjects?

Maybe they can turn to other homeschooling parents...

*shrug*

vorchia said:

How is this problem being avoided? I know highschool is different then the kind of secondary school I've been in and comparable or slightly more difficult then the highest, hardest kind of secondary school we have. I KNOW I would fail and many with me as only ten percent or less make it to and through that level of highschool.

I don't know about the last part. The US public school system is crappy overall.

vorchia said:

Most people go through simpler secondary schools alas, the U.S. only has the one level, the hardest one. So if a parent has to homeschool, and reaches the level beyond their OWN mental abilities, then what?

I guess they shouldn't be homeschooling.

Here is Rhode Island's guidelines. You need some degree of committee approval in that state in order to homeschool. Don't know how it is in other states.

vorchia said:

If a kid is to be homeschooled, how to make sure the quality of education is at least as good as that of a professional teacher? Are there tests a few times a semester at an institution that looks over the homeschooling, supporting and helping the homeschooling families? I mean, to me it looks near impossible to do, it would make sense to me if there was a (government?) organisation to look over it?
I have always thought this homeschooling thing one of the strangest phenomena in the American culture. Its completely alien to me, I'll respect it but I have to stand and wonder as its well, an extremely unusual thing. Here it 'wouldn't even be legal, by law, a child in the Netherlands must attend to an official school untill the age of 16.

The link might help. At least in terms of Rhode Island...

vorchia said:

Besides, you NEED a diploma of your secondary school either to be able to find a job or to get into further education. A home printed 'diploma' signed by your mother wouldn't get you anywhere as mommy dear could have given you all those A's on the diploma out of love alone. So how DO you get a dimploma if you're being homeschooled? Can you take state exams or something?

I think GEDs are good enough to get into some colleges.

vorchia said:

Oh the forum has four subjects because there WAS no news forum and then the London Attacks happened and I didn't know where to put it so I included 'news'. I'll split it up....

Thanks for that.

- Aric

[Vorchia]

Again, a very usefull link Aric. It was highly educational and leaves only one question.

It is stated that, doing the G.E.D. the homeschooled child can get a highschool equivalent diploma. Then later on it states some colleges accept homeschooled children. So there is an inequality in the aqcuired diploma? Homeschoolers can't go to Harvard? What happened to the equal rights for everyone? Ought they not to have as much right to do the entrance exam of any college or university they wish to try?

One small comfort, the Dutch schoolsystem is just as bad if not worse then that of the U.S.A. Its only quality is its cost. The school for me this year is 1495 eurodollars while I know in the U.S.A. the sky is the limit, for school fees. I know I'd never be able to have any education had I been born in the U.S.!

I'll explain it quickly by copy pasting a small piece I wrote about the Dutch schoolsystem:

The Dutch School System
Each year I, being a Dutch student, stumble upon school-related questions which results in endless explanations of the system. This constant repeating gets boring after a while so I decided to turn it into a node. This just holds the basics of the system.
As a little 4 year old kid you go to primary school. Primary school is one and the same for everyone.

There are special primary schools for kids who need special attention but right now I'm just explaining about the most common type of primary school.

Primary school has 8 classes. The first 2 are a bit like kindergarten, the kids just play, sing, draw and play games supervised by a teacher.

In group 3, at age 6, they start with learning how to write and calculate and stuff.

Group 4,5,6,7 and eight continue with teaching the kids the basics, also things like history, geography and biology.

Group eight is the last class of primary, Most children are 12 years old here. In this class all the children get the CITO test, an IQ test used to determine the next step in their education.

The CITO test is taken throughout The Netherlands on the same time and takes a few hours a day over the course of a few days.

The CITO test doesn't say one MUST attend a certain school it is merely an indication and helpful in making the right choice.

Depending on the score of the CITO test the child then gets advised regarding the next step in their schooling: secondary school.

From lowest to highest, only counting the non-specialized schools: VBO, MAVO, HAVO, Atheneum, Gymnasium. VBO and MAVO are often used in one and the same word: VMBO. Atheneum and Gymnasium are called VWO.
(VBO and Mavo have been fused to become VMBO)

VBO = Voorbereidend Beroeps Onderwijs (preparing job education) This is the lowest level, it takes 4 years.

MAVO = Middelbaar Algemeen Voortgezet Onderwijs (moderate common secondary education) This is a little bit higher level then VBO, it too takes 4 years)

HAVO = Hoger Algemeen Voortgezet Onderwijs (higher common secondary education) This one is too harder then MAVO and VBO and takes 5 years.

VWO= Voortgezet Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs (Scientific Secondary Education)VWO is the hardest, it takes 6 years and here you can also take Latin and or Greek, which the lower schools don't have.

Its not hard to follow that after secondary school, the levels stay split. A diploma MAVO or VBO can get you to MBO. A HAVO diploma to HBO and a VWO to University.

MBO stands for Middelbaar Beroeps onderwijs which can be roughly translated to 'Average Job Education'. MBO has sublevels. You can get an assistant's diploma in half a year to one year. You can get basic diploma in 3 years and a specialized one in 4 years. If one successfully finishes the 4 year education here one can also go to HBO even if one doesn't have a HAVO diploma. Some schools offer accelerated schooling for the specialized diploma for people who have the HAVO diploma. In this way these people can get the diploma in only 2 or 3 years.

HBO (Hoger Beroepsonderwijs/Higher Job Education) is what one does after HAVO or completed 4 year MBO. It too takes 4 years. And is basically the same story as for MBO but then a higher level. If someone did MBO successfully he or she may often skip the first year of HBO. If one has a HBO diploma one can go to university even if one has no VWO diploma. The HBO level is similar to college, its just below the real university.

University is 6 years although its currently changing to be a copy of the bachelor/master degree system. This is mainly to make a Dutch university diploma more useful, as in more easily recognized, internationally.


(All the Dutch words were translated freely by me, based on my English wich may not be perfect. Suggestions for improvement are more then welcome.)

The problem with this system, is that it limits your possibilities. I want to be a scientist and its been a long and hard fight up to now to beat this system. I started at HAVO but I reallyt suck at anything that reeks of math or grammar and my marks for languages, math and physics where big fat F’s altough I tried my best it wouldn’t work. That and I always had so much more questions then everyone else in class I didn’t dare to ask them all for fear of looking very foolish. And of course I got no support from my family as all they did was get mad because I was failing instead of being there to help me. I ended up going to the MAVO and paying for my education myself doing weekendjobs like McDonalds. After the MAVO I had to go through MBO which I just graduated from. MBO was hell, the school and its people have hindered me in every possible way and its taken six years instead of four. Six years of hell to get into HBO which is college. Six years of being told ‘look, you’re screwing up, go do something else’, six years of fighting for my rights, six years of being sent to the shrink to find out why I was so stubborn to go on and why I was depressed. Six years of not being supported in my decisions by my family because they would not believe in me.
Well I was so stubborn because I know what I want and was willing to fight for it, still am. Another bad thing about MBO is the depth of the study material. Every time you’ve aquired the basics and happily prepare to dig in deeper into some scientific problem, its being discouraged strongly to the point of questions beyond the stuff required being answered with ‘You don’t need to know that, it won’t be on the exam’. That hurts as I’m a curious person who really likes to know. I’m not stupid, I did get an A for my most recent physics and my chemistry and biology aren’t far behind that.
MBO is maybe closest to an associates degree, HBO a college bachelor and Uni, well, University bachelor and master.
Next year I’ll finally be in college, HBO and get to have the education I want, as in depth as I want to go. I win.
So don’t worry aboutthe U.S. system being a pain, the Dutch is no better.

Oh some more differences, in secondary school you choose one of three profiles. 'Nature and technology', 'health and nature' and another one I forgot. It wasn't so when I was in secondary but the one certainty in our schoolsystem is continuous radical change, on all levels. Every time a politician gets replaced the newcomer will 'save the schoolsystem with some radical changes', except that these changes follow each other so rapidly no idea or system ever gets to settle down and work right. Its been like this for about 30 years. Welcome to the Netherlands, the small country trying to be large and failing.

Anyway, once you have chosen a profile in secidary school, you geta set number of classes scheduled by the school, there's no choosing and scheduling yourself. Mythology, anthropology, Latin and Greek are exclusive subjects for the VWO, the highest level. Hence to me these subjects are still something well, of the higher classes...
After secondary school you choose an MBO, HBO ro UNI depending on your secondary school education. YOu choose again for a set education, to be a microbiologist, a lawyer, a painter, a nurse, anything you want and you again get some set classes scheduled by the school, no choosing, no taking classes outside your requirements. So no, I couldn't take a business class as it has nothing to do with microbiology.
Another fun thing, after secondary school things like science, history, mythology and languages are only being taught at uni so you have to fight your way into uni top get them.
So no I've had no history, mythology and languages after my 4 year secondary school education except for some very rudimentary english which mainly revolved aroudn learning some words like 'erlenmeyer flask'. Most people who finished MBO microbiology with me, don't understand me wnen I start in english.
I aquired my english skills because of my scientific curiosity. When I was 14 my stephdad gave me a dinosaur book. (I'll bet he's wondered WHY later on ) Anyway, I found it hard to find Dutch paleontological literature as my interest in it grew (became an obsession??) and I quickly depleted what limited stuff was available. I wanted more so I bought and english book and read, with my dictionray on my lap, writing the translation, of at first almost every word between the lines... I read a lot of books like that and it worked. I learned the spoken language by watching the BBC with subtitling.