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Post by Vorchia on Jun 29, 2008 17:19:44 GMT -5
Hiya all!! Suppose you can get a job but you think it may interfere with what ethics you believe in... How far do you go for money and a carreer? I mean this, I am currently seeking a job as a laboratory technician. I could apply at a hospital lab or at a university or research institution or a company. Now a hospital lab for diagnostics would be ethically OK of course, a very safe course to take. Biological research however can hit a rather large number of ethical issues ranging from the use of animals to cells, embryos, tissues, stemcells etc of human origin. Other interesting topics include genetic manipulation... Now these point aren't the problem... My problem is with medicine development... Pharmaceutical companies tend to be so hell bent on profit they forget the human part of making new medicines. I'd feel like I was selling my soul if I ventured in there. Should I be or am I just biased now or what? I do NOT trust the pharmaceutical companies. Same as I dont trust the market principle in health care, its the same thing... I understand certain nations have a rather strong fear of socialism but how does that justify becoming an antisocial system where money has become a greater good than healthcare and helping the driving force of the economy stay healthy without sending them into bankrupcy? If Europe keeps trying to follow the US in its ways of horror we'll have the same crap going on over here before long. Its not like we did not yet have enough to make any European ashamed of their heritage. >_< Obama seems to want to try to fix things in the US a little but something tells me he will be shot for it if he actually intends to carry it out (which is dubitable as politicians can't be trusted on their word  ). ANyway, I could get a job at a company that makes antibodies for clinical use. Its small but tied up with bigger pharma companies. There would be more oppertunities for schooling and decent pay there than at other places, add to it that its a growing business. It looks favorable but it may also smell rather horrible... Opinions please? I don't want to sell my soul as a decent scientist...  BDSP Nat |
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Post by thundertail on Jun 29, 2008 20:46:53 GMT -5
This is usually a tough choice in no matter what you do: will your best interests get in the way with what you believe in?
One thing I learned is there is good and bad in everything, and no matter what choice you choose, there will be an upside as well as a downside. All the social, political and moral problems in the world are so entwined with everything we do or need that it is hard to make the right decisions. Before you know it, you ask whether or not the thing you need to do is right with everything you hold true.
I think the best thing to do in this case is to go do what is needed, no matter the moral implications. Ask yourself if you need that job more than you need to make sure it is morally right. It is better to choose the lesser of two evils, so to speak.
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Post by Vorchia on Jul 1, 2008 1:36:05 GMT -5
Well I have an interview at a diagnostics lab at a hospital now... Thats the safest option ethics wise....
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aric
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Post by aric on Jul 2, 2008 17:31:34 GMT -5
Now these point aren't the problem... My problem is with medicine development... Pharmaceutical companies tend to be so hell bent on profit they forget the human part of making new medicines. I'd feel like I was selling my soul if I ventured in there. Should I be or am I just biased now or what? If being concerned for public welfare and social responsibility is being biased, then yes, you are biased. I do NOT trust the pharmaceutical companies. Same as I dont trust the market principle in health care, its the same thing... Nor should you. Nor should anyone else for that matter. There was a thread started by jewelspike about American healthcare where I link to an article that shows pharmaceutical companies spending twice as much on the marketing of drugs as on research and development of those same drugs. These costs are (of course) passed on to the consumer and taxpayer. One would think the solution would be to take drug research out of private hands and put them in the universities with the production of researched drugs licensed out to government-chartered companies. I understand certain nations have a rather strong fear of socialism but how does that justify becoming an antisocial system where money has become a greater good than healthcare and helping the driving force of the economy stay healthy without sending them into bankrupcy? There are a lot of factors that contribute to the anti-socialism mindset. Forty years of Cold War indoctrination of capitalist ideology helps a lot. Anything that even smacks of communism or socialism is viewed by some as inherently evil. Also, there’s this persistent myth of individualism. That somehow, the ability to choose your own products in a free market is a God-given right. And people are selfish. When push comes to shove, the basic reason why a lot of folks don’t want nationalized healthcare is because they don’t want to pay for other people’s medical bills. There are a lot of arguments given by capitalist apologists that simply boil down to “I got mine, screw everyone else.” Of course, most of these folks don’t blink an eye when they pay for police or firefighters, but then they scream bloody murder when someone mentions public healthcare. *shrug* - Aric |
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Post by jewelspike on Jul 6, 2008 0:52:15 GMT -5
Now these point aren't the problem... My problem is with medicine development... Pharmaceutical companies tend to be so hell bent on profit they forget the human part of making new medicines. I'd feel like I was selling my soul if I ventured in there. Should I be or am I just biased now or what? Nor should you. Nor should anyone else for that matter. There was a thread started by jewelspike about American healthcare where I link to an article that shows pharmaceutical companies spending twice as much on the marketing of drugs as on research and development of those same drugs. These costs are (of course) passed on to the consumer and taxpayer. One would think the solution would be to take drug research out of private hands and put them in the universities with the production of researched drugs licensed out to government-chartered companies. Right! It's not communism, it's common sense! As I said earlier, you can't run healthcare like a business, because healthcare givers have a moral obligation to take care of the sick and injured, not to restrict its services to the highest bidder! |
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Post by Vorchia on Jul 7, 2008 15:33:37 GMT -5
Yes Aric, you sum it up nicely, it´ll just never cease to amaze me...
Oh I understand how convenient it is to sit on one's own little bit of cash but to force the love for money so far as to hinder proper healthcare? My god... The world's richest nation will let its sick perish, this can not be what they meant to do when the fear or the cold war turned their hearts against communism? Has it not been taken way over the edge by now? I can cry at the manifestations of this phenomenon albeit I have only seen a very few cases of it.
Some people will even call my own country 'socialist'.... Then ask if I am 'offended'.... Well no but we're not exactly socialist, its just that the U.S. politics is so liberal, any other country would appear 'socialist' compared to it or am I wrong? Well I'd rather be socialist and have healthcare and a social system for those who need it then having to discriminate for the sake of money.
I´ve been turned down for the hospital job, the other options are small companies....... How the hell am I going sift it NOW? Where commerce and (biomedical) science meets the possibility of it going horribly, horribly wrong is ever present. I can avoid the big pharma companies...
In the meantime another friend keeps telling me try to go for a phd in the U.S. anyway..... But that may be too much for me, my brain isn't that fast and I kept running into my own mental limitations at my internship, I'm seriously burned up with just half a year of research....
BDSP Vorchia
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aric
demi-admin
I drink your milkshake!
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Post by aric on Jul 9, 2008 17:13:41 GMT -5
Nor should you. Nor should anyone else for that matter. There was a thread started by jewelspike about American healthcare where I link to an article that shows pharmaceutical companies spending twice as much on the marketing of drugs as on research and development of those same drugs. These costs are (of course) passed on to the consumer and taxpayer. One would think the solution would be to take drug research out of private hands and put them in the universities with the production of researched drugs licensed out to government-chartered companies. Right! It's not communism, it's common sense! As I said earlier, you can't run healthcare like a business, because healthcare givers have a moral obligation to take care of the sick and injured, not to restrict its services to the highest bidder! On a bit of a side-note, John McCain has said that he would make the healthcare industry more like universities in the way they dish out services. Since the quality of university education is related to the cost of the institution, McCain is essentially saying he's sticking with the current system of service-to-those-who-pay...... Oh I understand how convenient it is to sit on one's own little bit of cash but to force the love for money so far as to hinder proper healthcare? My god... The world's richest nation will let its sick perish, this can not be what they meant to do when the fear or the cold war turned their hearts against communism? Has it not been taken way over the edge by now? Nope. If anything, it’s going to crystalize even further. The Cold War may be over and the Soviet Union gone, but now the US finds itself in a new multi-generational war against terrorism. If you look at the commentaries of the Right-wing, it’s very similar to what they were saying back during the Cold War – namely that we must turn to God and Capitalism in order to fight our enemies. The fear that drove Americans to adopt such a polemic position dimmed a bit after the Cold War, but now it looks like that fear is back. And Americans, like anyone else, are most irrational when they’re afraid. Some people will even call my own country 'socialist'.... Then ask if I am 'offended'.... Well no but we're not exactly socialist, its just that the U.S. politics is so liberal, any other country would appear 'socialist' compared to it or am I wrong? Well I'd rather be socialist and have healthcare and a social system for those who need it then having to discriminate for the sake of money. Just to clarify, when Vorchia describes the US as being “liberal,” she’s not talking about how Americans would define it. She’s talking about classical liberalism, which basically stands for laissez-faire economics. And yes, the American economic system is laissez-faire enough that any other Western country would be considered far to the Left of the political spectrum in comparison to that of the US. When you talk about a country like China where they can force their own people into manufacturing servitude for pennies a day, they're even more amenable to business than the US, which is why American corporations love doing business in China. I´ve been turned down for the hospital job, the other options are small companies....... How the hell am I going sift it NOW? Where commerce and (biomedical) science meets the possibility of it going horribly, horribly wrong is ever present. I can avoid the big pharma companies... Out of curiosity, do you know for sure that these small companies will abuse the scientific method and discourse in order to make their profits? I know that’s an almost systematic part of corporate science, but I wonder if the same kind of profiteering pressures are present in the small companies that you describe to that degree? I don’t think there’s any harm in trying out these small companies. If you feel pressure to change or alter your work so that the company can save money or something, then you should think about bailing out. But until then, I think you need money a little more than you need to stick to your principles. - Aric |
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Post by Vorchia on Jul 21, 2008 6:59:24 GMT -5
namely that we must turn to God and Capitalism in order to fight our enemies. The fear that drove Americans to adopt such a polemic position dimmed a bit after the Cold War, but now it looks like that fear is back. And Americans, like anyone else, are most irrational when they’re afraid. Funny…. I know the separation of Church and state in the U.S. is not constitutionally arranged the way it is in the Netherlands. Then if a government chooses not to separate church and state, how can they govern without contradicting themselves. The whole “you can’t serve God AND money” thing, which is exactly what they’re trying to do if they turn to ‘God AND Capitalism’… Hello? Just to clarify, when Vorchia describes the US as being “liberal,” she’s not talking about how Americans would define it. She’s talking about classical liberalism, which basically stands for laissez-faire economics. True, I didn’t realize that needed further defining but yes, compared to even the most liberal political party in our multi party system, the U.S.A. is just about off the chart albeit it seems we (MOST unfortunately) are catching up… Suffice it to say our prime minister is a suck up to the U.S. president and it seems its always been that way. And yes, the American economic system is laissez-faire enough that any other Western country would be considered far to the Left of the political spectrum in comparison to that of the US. When you talk about a country like China where they can force their own people into manufacturing servitude for pennies a day, they're even more amenable to business than the US, which is why American corporations love doing business in China. Soooo…. Where does that place the ‘lets buy American products’ mentality? Out of curiosity, do you know for sure that these small companies will abuse the scientific method and discourse in order to make their profits? I know that’s an almost systematic part of corporate science, but I wonder if the same kind of profiteering pressures are present in the small companies that you describe to that degree? I don’t think there’s any harm in trying out these small companies. If you feel pressure to change or alter your work so that the company can save money or something, then you should think about bailing out. But until then, I think you need money a little more than you need to stick to your principles. I have no idea! That’s the whole problem too. I’ve heard people jokingly call it ‘the quarterlife crisis’, 25, done with college and standing there with a small piece of paper to figure out what to do NOW. Small companies want profit too. Now apparently the trend is that the bigger companies basically sell work to the smaller ones so they need not bother with maintaining expensive facilities. Many of the small companies are directly associated with the bigger ones for work… AS for money, oh I don’t know… I kinda suck at finding jobs in the first place because my self esteem is rather low. I passed my exams but it seems I forget everything I learn and to make it worse, they nowadays want extracurricu activities, strong personalities, business mentality, management abilities and heaven knows what rather than someone who simply worked hard to get her degree… |
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aric
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Post by aric on Jul 30, 2008 17:03:44 GMT -5
namely that we must turn to God and Capitalism in order to fight our enemies. The fear that drove Americans to adopt such a polemic position dimmed a bit after the Cold War, but now it looks like that fear is back. And Americans, like anyone else, are most irrational when they’re afraid. Funny…. I know the separation of Church and state in the U.S. is not constitutionally arranged the way it is in the Netherlands. Then if a government chooses not to separate church and state, how can they govern without contradicting themselves. The whole “you can’t serve God AND money” thing, which is exactly what they’re trying to do if they turn to ‘God AND Capitalism’… Hello? It's a bit complicated. There are devout Christians in the country who are suspicious of the crass nature of money-making, but then there are those who see no contradiction. Perhaps the most egregious of this second group being Oral "Give me eight million dollars or God will kill me" Roberts. Also, the description above isn't one that's enacted in law. It's merely an axiom that a lot of Americans live by. And if there is a conflict with secular law, then it's either taken care of in the courts or conveniently ignored. Soooo…. Where does that place the ‘lets buy American products’ mentality? That comes from certain elements of the American populace who are more concerned about nationalism than capitalism. Those people who advocate strong business relationships with China tend to be folks who reverse the concerns of the previous group. Small companies want profit too. Undoubtedly. But I'm not inclined to think that the systematic obsession to maximize profits is quite as strong in a non-publicly-traded firm as it would be in a corporation. I may be wrong. - Aric |
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