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Post by thundertail on Aug 4, 2007 15:00:16 GMT -5
Being a person that grew up Christian, I have seen all sorts of ways that one could live ones' life. I guess you can say there are a lot of bad ways to live, but do you have to necesarilly be affiliated with any form of religeon just to be considered good?
I know a lot of people who don't worship anything, and yet they live thier lives the best way thay can. They love thier lives and loved ones and do everything they are supposed to; but they don't worship any kind of God. Does that make them bad?
Over the years I found you don't need to impress a deity in order to live a fruitful life. I found that all you need to do is the very best you can in anything you do and everything will be all right. A way like this might seem the wrong path to most who worship, but if a person lives a good, upstanding life, I find you 'get there' just as well as religeous people.
I say this because, even though I live my life along the lines as the Bible says to; I treat it like simply a guidebook, and not as a thing carved in stone. If you take a writing critic point of view, the Bible (As is any religeous text) is part history book, part moral-honing material and part for worship. One must consider the era it was written in. Mankind of the age it was written in was not as technically advanced as we are now; and most of thier population wasn't as educated as most. To them, things we can easilly expolain scientifically was magic and miracles to them. Most couldn't conceive of numbers over 1000, and they certainly didn't know a lot of things we know now.
Over the years the Bible (for example0 was written, those that copied it, as well as other religeous leaders, added thier own material and deleted things that were there. The religeous texts we have today are NOT the same ones as was originally penned! So I guess it's a toss up as to what is really right in them; but the only thing that really matters is what every person thinks about religeon.
God? The meaning of life? Which religeon is right? All this means exactly what everyone individually thinks it means - nothing more and nothing less...
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aric
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Post by aric on Aug 5, 2007 5:53:54 GMT -5
Being a person that grew up Christian, I have seen all sorts of ways that one could live ones' life. I guess you can say there are a lot of bad ways to live, but do you have to necesarilly be affiliated with any form of religeon just to be considered good? I know a lot of people who don't worship anything, and yet they live thier lives the best way thay can. They love thier lives and loved ones and do everything they are supposed to; Good post overall. I should point out that the second paragraph answers the question at the end of the first. but they don't worship any kind of God. Does that make them bad? That depends on people's ideas of what it means to be moral or good/bad. Some folks (in particular, many fundamentalists) believe that morality only comes from their respective deity. Thus, in order for anyone to be moral by their standards, one must believe in their god and follow their religion. Other folks, on the other hand, base their morals on a varying combination of empathy, self-esteem/reciprocity, and self-interest. Obviously, this requires no deity. And of course, there are folks who might combine the above two. Let me point you out to a couple of threads that touch on basically the same subject. Thread 1 - This thread talks about the basis of morality and whether morality depends on a god or gods or if it's totally independent of Him/Her/It/Them. Thread 2 - This thread was started on the idea of what people who had an existing belief in God would do if they thought or found out all of a sudden that there was no deity. Specifically, it asks whether they would still find reason to be moral people. The overwhelming answer in that one was "Yes." - Aric
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Buttercup
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Post by Buttercup on Aug 5, 2007 22:12:35 GMT -5
Well, I do not see myself as religious, but I have been told that I am a good person...For a little while, I tried very hard to fit myself into the Christian mold, and the boyfriend I had at the time didn't see what the big idea was, so to speak. He said that I didn't need the trappings of religion.(his words, not mine) to get into heaven. He said that i was once of the best people that he knew and that I had to be going "there". Now, although i no longer believe in those philosophies for myself, i like to believe that the good will that was imbued into that statement goes to show that I am a good person regardless. Everyone measures good or evil i their own way. Everyone measures the degree or depth of their own capacity for each by different tools. I see religion as one of these such tools. So therefore, to my way of thinking, it isn't so much a question so much of would people good anymore...it would become a question of could previously religious people tell what good was anymore without their measuring stick? Does this make sense to anyone else?
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Barry
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Post by Barry on Aug 6, 2007 3:49:15 GMT -5
Same here, I too do not see myself as religious, and I agree to what Buttercup stated above. I have my own ways for measuring between good and evil and I try to keep the ways of the Bible as much as possible. It's my guide book. I say If it's not in there, I won't do it. Occasionally, I get off track and do something wrong, but I try to correct it by asking GOD and by faith. Sometimes it isn't easy and I make a bad call. Just because you become a Christian doesn't mean you can't make any mistakes.
— Barry
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Post by thundertail on Aug 6, 2007 17:30:55 GMT -5
Even though I grew up with religeon, today I really don't worship; but I try to keep an open mind about nearly everything in the world. I guess it's up to me to decide for myself what is right and what is wrong, and I don't have the right to decide these things for anybody else. I figure that the way I treat others is the way I'd like others to treat me - even though I don't get that as often as I wish! I love my family and friends reguardless of who or what they are, even though the same doesn't necesarilly apply for them. I work to eke out a living, even though the people I work for doesn't necesarilly appreciate or recognize my effort most of the time.
I put honest effort in everything I do; and even though I sometimes fail, I take it for what it is and try to learn from the experience. I do all this, and think that I'm a good person; but I do all this without necesarilly thinking that a deity has anything to do with it. I guess life shows a person that being good and having as good life can be two different things. But I learned that, if life gives you a bad time; stick your hand in the air and point in another direction...
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aric
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Post by aric on Aug 7, 2007 0:49:08 GMT -5
So therefore, to my way of thinking, it isn't so much a question so much of would people good anymore...it would become a question of could previously religious people tell what good was anymore without their measuring stick? Does this make sense to anyone else? If they've been raised in that belief for their whole lives, then much of how they look at right and wrong will be influenced by their religion. But I wouldn't say it necessarily confines them to that outlook. I think people can still grow and learn. And let's be honest, the vast majority of people don't get their sense of good and bad from just religion. It's also a part of the culture. You get taught this in school as well as from TV even. I think it's relatively rare that religion has that kind of monopoly in determining how people are. Same here, I too do not see myself as religious, and I agree to what Buttercup stated above. I have my own ways for measuring between good and evil and I try to keep the ways of the Bible as much as possible. It's my guide book. I say If it's not in there, I won't do it. Occasionally, I get off track and do something wrong, but I try to correct it by asking GOD and by faith. Sometimes it isn't easy and I make a bad call. Just because you become a Christian doesn't mean you can't make any mistakes.
— Barry Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "religious"? Because honestly, when someone says they're not religious, then says in the next sentence that they try to follow the Bible as much as possible, it hits me as a bit of a discrepency. - Aric
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Post by thundertail on Aug 7, 2007 4:34:08 GMT -5
Oh, that! I meant that, even though I agree with most of the morality taught in the bible, I do not worship.
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Barry
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Post by Barry on Aug 7, 2007 12:09:27 GMT -5
Well, since the Bible is part of it, and it's the Word of God. These versus from the book of James is what comes the closes thing to the definition of the word religious I can come to.
"If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless." - James 1:26
"Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." - James 1:27
more versus that may explain it better:
I said, “I will watch my ways and keep my tongue from sin; I will put a muzzle on my mouth as long as the wicked are in my presence.” - Psalm 39:1
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. - Colossians 2:18
My def of being religious is being like a Pharisee or a Sadducee. People that think they are holyer than Thou. That would be the way I put it — IMO. I not one of those people. There are some people in town that may think I am, but that is their opinion. IMO, they are just like the Pharisees and Sadducees.
That's all I can come up with to try to shed some light on this "being religious". If this isn't what you want to hear then I can't help you.
EDIT: If you really want to know, then try it for yourself. Go seek GOD, and experience it for yourself. You may find some of the answers you are looking for. Because words alone can't tell you everything about it.
— Barry
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Post by thundertail on Aug 7, 2007 16:37:45 GMT -5
Been there, done that. (Many times!) I see no difference either way. I'd still believe and do the same things whether God was in my life the way you say or not.
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aric
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Post by aric on Aug 7, 2007 22:13:54 GMT -5
Well, since the Bible is part of it, and it's the Word of God. These versus from the book of James is what comes the closes thing to the definition of the word religious I can come to.
Yeah. See, when I hear the term "religious" applied to someone, I think about someone who dedicates themselves to God, and is devout and faithful. So I hope you understand that when I hear you saying that you're not religious, it's rather contradictory to my usual understanding of the description. My def of being religious is being like a Pharisee or a Sadducee. People that think they are higher than Thou. That would be the way I put it — IMO. I not one of those people. There are some people in town that may think I am, but that is their opinion. IMO, they are just like the Pharisees and Sadducees.Honestly, I never heard that one before. And I suspect a lot of other people who aren't devout haven't heard of that either. - Aric
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Post by thundertail on Aug 8, 2007 4:39:27 GMT -5
I think what I'm really trying to do here is to find some basis on how all Dinotopians think. The whole concept of Dinotopia is to be good and do the right thing; and yet they do it without any type of religeon to speak of. Sure, those washed up on shore brought thier own kinds of religeon with them to base thier goodness on, and then soon blend thier morals with those already there - and thier religeon seemed to fade away over time...
What I'm wondering is, what would they base thier goodness on now that thier religeon is no more? It would seem that they base thier goodness on thier own inner morals, and nothing much more. What's more, what do the DINOSAURS base thier morals and goodness on? It seems pretty clear that they have been on the island for millions of years, and they don't seem to have any kind of religeon at all!
It works on paper, as it were; but perhaps mankind could develop a sense of moral goodness and leave religeon out of the picture one of these days. Wars sometimes start over the differences in ones' religeon; so if there wasn't any, it would give mankind one less reason to start one up! All we would need to depend on is each individuals' inner sense of morality and knowing what's right to govern our actions. It could work; but mankind would have to get over all the things they had already been known for before it can happen!
That was basically my point...
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Buttercup
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Post by Buttercup on Aug 11, 2007 21:24:20 GMT -5
OK, I feel like I am having a "duh" moment, as in, i never thought of that! I have often heard the argument that the world would be a better place and there would be less, or no war, if everyone followed the same religion. I am ashamed to admit that i never made the connection that Dinotopia represents the flip side of that argument with their being no religion at all.
I would like to think that the real world could one day reach a similar state as that of Dinotopia, with harmony as the binding factor in everyone's lives. However, I do not see it happening soon because of the concept and strength of faith itself.
Faith, by it's very definition, has to be very strong for an individual to even have it in the first place because there is almost never any scientifically proven data to support it. Therefor, the faith has to be so strong to overcome the lack of utter certainty. And if this faith strong enough to believe, then it will not be easily cast aside for the furtherance of "the greater good" because almost any religion believes itself responsible for the "greater good". Therefor, since neither any nor all can win at the moment, i don't see it happening anytime soon.
As to Dinotopia, I think that the fairest assumption to accept would be a cross of proven fact, IE. the proven co-existence of every other Dinotopian in harmony with no religion to bind them, and also the sheer mind blowing phenomenon presented to each dolphinback in the form of all of the Saurians present in every aspect of Dinotopian Society. Anyone with previous religious beliefs would almost have to completely revamp their beliefs to support not only the existence of the Saurians but of the fact that they have souls. Many of the worlds current beliefs leave no room for anyone who doesn't have a soul, all "animals,including reptiles" are classified as soulless. What Dolphinback will be able to reconcile the differences between their religion and that of the Dinotopian society before their very eyes? I say if you can't refute or reconcile them, Join Them!
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Post by thundertail on Aug 13, 2007 4:51:44 GMT -5
Exactly, Buttercup! *Claps, but arms are too short!* And whose to say that your cat, dog or whatever pet you have doesn't have a soul? They certainly have a personality, and show thier intellegence! just because thay can't voice thier minds in a language we understand, it doesn't mean they aren't intellegent in thier own right. On this planet, we are no more special than any other life form here; so what makes us think we're so special? We make cities... Big deal, so do many insects and animals! We change our environment... Same for other animals. We make claims to various pieces of land... so do they! Just because we got the biggest brain to body ratio doesn't mean we're any better than they are. I guess the only reason we think so is because of our egos! It was that and that alone that made us think we were kings of the world!
I think Buttercup is right saying it would be a hard state if everyone on earth took the Dinotopian way of life. A concept like that would be as hard to do as an air breather to live under water! But it wouldn't be so tough after we got our act together and humble ourselves (Not necesarilly with religeon.) and see life as other creatures see it. And i'm niot talking 'survival of the fittest'. All animals live life with a sense of survivalistic indifference: they tend to leave one another alone unless it's directly related with survival. They hunt others and interact with thier own kind, but generally leave each other alone. With humans, it's vasdtly different. We tend to see things in the long term. We seldom hunt, but need meat; so we make livestock farms. We eat plants, so here comes the agricultural farms. We need housing, and we never stop building. We need other rescources, so we strip the earth of them. We do all this and never consider the concequences! Does that sound like the actions of the most intellegent species on earth?
On Dinotopia, they don't do that. They act like every living thing on thier island is just as important than all the rest - and they RESPECT them. Ours is a society without respect to others. We're the 'live for now' society. We're out for #1 and &$#@ anybody else! We show no respect for any living thing or the place where we live, and mostly we don't show respect for ourselves! If we did we wouldn't do these things.
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Post by NonStop on Aug 13, 2007 13:29:39 GMT -5
I don't even know whether there is such a thing as good/bad/evil. I think these are concepts created to help society. However, if there is something like a moral realm of goodness/evil (of which I highly doubt), I would most definitely say that being religious has nothing to do with it.
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aric
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Post by aric on Aug 14, 2007 9:19:43 GMT -5
OK, I feel like I am having a "duh" moment, as in, i never thought of that! I have often heard the argument that the world would be a better place and there would be less, or no war, if everyone followed the same religion. I am ashamed to admit that i never made the connection that Dinotopia represents the flip side of that argument with their being no religion at all. You're right in that there's apparently no official religion or organization to peddle its dogma. However, it can't be denied that the Dinotopians live a very spiritual life. It permeates their culture. It doesn't necessarily take a religion to do that, but there are social mechanisms to make sure people follow the tenets that society wants them to follow, ie songs, schooling, social pressure, etc. I would like to think that the real world could one day reach a similar state as that of Dinotopia, with harmony as the binding factor in everyone's lives. However, I do not see it happening soon because of the concept and strength of faith itself. I agree. I think there have been genetic studies that show religious thinking as almost fundamental to human psychology. Religion isn't going away anytime soon. - Aric
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