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Post by samdman on Mar 25, 2006 19:03:04 GMT -5
Not sure if anyone saw this one the news recently, about the Christian convert who's up for the death penalty, simply for not being Muslim (pretty short article): news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4845970.stmJust thought the following quote was interesting: "The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back," says Ansarullah Mawlafizada, the trial judge. "Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him," he told the BBC News website So, let me get this straight - the Q'oran literally says "kill anyone who won't be a Muslim" but as a religion you are peaceful, tolerant and kind?!! Wouldn't it be better to say, "we're peaceful, forgiving and loving so believe what we tell you to or we kill you"?!! Lose-lose situation guys - kill him and the rest of the world sees Islam for what it actually is, don't kill him and you're not following your holy book, which means you must not take it seriously enough . . . it's funny that when the crusades were going on it was Christians MISREADING the Bible that led to the death, here it's the other way around . . .
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Post by Azonthus on Mar 29, 2006 0:02:53 GMT -5
Hey, the only reason Islam spread so far was because it was spread by the sword. When they came into an area, it was convert or die. I do not recognize it as a religion of peace or as anything close to Christianity. Allah is not Yahweh, despite what the media may say. Still, I do not hate muslims, just like I do not (despite what some may think) hate evolutionists. I pray for the muslims (and evolutionists ), and will argue my points when given the chance, but I do not actively seek them out. A muslim person would not respect anything I would tell them because I am 1) an infadel Christian and 2) a woman. The best thing I can do, and do do, for them is support a missionary to the Islamic nations. The missionary to Muslims in Ohio my church supports was born into the religion and was eventually saved; he now goes to people in the muslim communities and is able to get the message across in a way that is both heard and respected. It's a tough job that I do not envy. Thank you for bringing this to attention. I'm sure a few here *cough, Aric cough, cough* will jump on you and me for this post, but that's okay; it's just his opinion. By the way, welcome to the Temple, Samdman. Please, feel free to engage in topics that are not religious or political In fact, everyone would be most happy if you would stop by the Shipwreck forum and introduce yourself. See you around! Run Fast, Seek Peace, Az
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aric
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Post by aric on Mar 30, 2006 5:00:34 GMT -5
Lose-lose situation guys - kill him and the rest of the world sees Islam for what it actually is, don't kill him and you're not following your holy book, which means you must not take it seriously enough . . . it's funny that when the crusades were going on it was Christians MISREADING the Bible that led to the death, here it's the other way around . . . It's rather interesting to see you generally label Islam as a violent religion even though in the exact same post, you laid the foundations for your own rebuttal. If it was as you describe it to be, then why did Saladin, a Muslim, not completely butcher the Christian crusaders who occupied the cities of the Holy Land? Especially after Christians had been so inclined to be genocidal when they came through the first time. If Islam was naturally the violent religion you make it out to be, why would there be Muslim generals who show more mercy than Christians? Why would some Dark Age Muslim leaders institute policies that were more tolerant towards Jews than Christians were at the time? If your assertion is correct, there should be no difference between Muslims now and Muslims then. Personally, I see this disgusting event in Afghanistan as a result of their tribalism in conjunction with their religious inclinations. I sort of explained my view of some Islamic extemism in that thread about the protests over Muhammed. Hey, the only reason Islam spread so far was because it was spread by the sword. When they came into an area, it was convert or die. Is this why there were never any Jews or Christians in Muslim territory throughout the entire history if Islamic nations? I should point out that the general consesus I percieve among historians is that Muslims in the Middle Ages were a lot more respectful of Jews that lived in their countries then Christians were at the time were. I do not recognize it as a religion of peace or as anything close to Christianity. I don't recognize Christianity as a religion of peace either. All that genocide and infanticide (let alone modern examples of American Christians who bomb abortion clinics, shoot doctors through their kitchen windows, and blow up buildings of the Evil Secularist Federal Government) in the Bible doesn't cry "Peace" either. Allah is not Yahweh, despite what the media may say. Not just the media. Islam is lumped in with Judaism and Christianity as Abrahamic religions. I wonder on what grounds you contend that that Yahweh/Jehovah isn't the same as Allah. A muslim person would not respect anything I would tell them because I am 1) an infadel Christian and 2) a woman. You've personally met enough muslims to make such a judgement? There are two million muslims in the US. I wonder how disrepectful they'd all be towards you, especially the ones who were born here and grew up here with American social values. As an aside, when my Barnes and Noble opened late last year, I saw a hot muslim woman named Tiffany in a halter top and form fitting leggings (spandex?) buy a copy of Islamic scripture from my cash register. But I suppose she doesn't count, huh? Those muslims are misogynistic savages!!!! The missionary to Muslims in Ohio my church supports was born into the religion and was eventually saved; he now goes to people in the muslim communities and is able to get the message across in a way that is both heard and respected. I thought you said they don't respect anything infidels (let alone an apostate of Islam like the one we have above) say. Now they do respect infidels? Thank you for bringing this to attention. I'm sure a few here *cough, Aric cough, cough* will jump on you and me for this post, but that's okay; it's just his opinion. "Just my opinion"? I take it that you think your generalizations are truthful while my response that I have bothered to justify with some evidence is just a wispy brain fart. - Aric
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Post by samdman on Mar 30, 2006 16:21:00 GMT -5
Ok quick point here
1. humans are fallible and make mistakes 2. God is perfect and will never make a mistake (3. God's word therefore must also be perfect)
yeah so Christians have done bad stuff - so has everyone so using that as an argument winner is just poor I'm afraid - don't even pretend you honestly think that's gonna stand for anything . . . the point is that the Q'oran clearly states Muslims should kill those who refuse to return to Islam, whereas the Bible says we ought to forgive and even love our enemies UNCONDITIONALLY (greek word agape), slightly different message there - and ok so again, Christians in the past have mucked up, that's because we're ALL sinful!!
So . . . if we're all sinful, and God is perfect, then we also need to achieve perfection, in order to spend eternity with Him - we therefore need a sacrifice for us because whatever we offer could never be enough (we're sinful remember), which is why Jesus died on that cross. With that as Christians we have a PROMISE of salvation (Romans 10:9 - if you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you WILL be saved) whereas the closest Muslims get is "if you do everything the Q'oran says Allah MIGHT be merciful. Praise be to Allah."
Quick paraphrase: Islam - literally "kill or be killed" Christianity - "believe, repent and receive guaranteed salvation"
Btw if I'm offending anyone here I apologise, i don't mean to and I'm not lying, would love to be challenged because I'm seeking the truth!!
Oh and PS - Yahweh isn't Allah because of what I said above - Yahweh is a forgiving God who, by His awesome forgiving fatherly agape love, has provided us with an easy Way, all we need to do is recognise it. (no rules here by the way, loving God literally is enough BUT grace abuse shows lack of understanding) Allah on the other hand commands that you follow his rules to even be in with a chance of any kind of salvation
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aric
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I drink your milkshake!
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Post by aric on Mar 31, 2006 4:02:27 GMT -5
1. humans are fallible and make mistakes 2. God is perfect and will never make a mistake (3. God's word therefore must also be perfect) Now, how can fallible humans transliterate infallible knowledge? BTW, I suppose you didn’t bother reading my response in the “Evangelical Indoctrination” thread, since you went ahead and used a “proof” that I talked about. Point number two is a presupposition on your part, therefore your conclusion, which I take to refer to the Bible, is irrational and in error if you're using that "proof" for justification. For someone who claims to not be against science, you sure are using a lot of a priori methodology. yeah so Christians have done bad stuff - so has everyone so using that as an argument winner is just poor I'm afraid - don't even pretend you honestly think that's gonna stand for anything . . . That depends on the argument, which you are mischaracterizing. Perhaps it’s due to you not reading and understanding my posts. Or, it could be that you’re simply making up arguments and placing them in my mouth so that you can better refute them and claim to have defeated me in debate. In any case, Azonthus claimed Christianity was somehow better than Islam. I, as well as yourself just now, have claimed otherwise. I would like to take the opportunity now to thank you for supporting me on that point. Thank you, comrade. the point is that the Q'uran clearly states Muslims should kill those who refuse to return to Islam, So, you’ve read enough of the Q’uran to know that the above edict is all that there is in the Q’uran when it comes to Muslim behavior towards non-Muslims? I’m guessing you have since you make such an absolute statement about its teachings without any sort of caution in your attitude. If so, then you are doing nothing more than picking the specific parts of the Q'uran that support a conclusion about Muslims you already came to while ignoring the points that disprove your position. If you’re the scholar of the Q'uran that you let on, then perhaps you might recognize these parts: 2:257, 3:018-019, and 39:010. I’d also like to know how it is then that Muslims in the distant past have been more tolerant than Christians if their book says only to kill non-believers. This is another point that you have conveniently passed over. Perhaps it was too much of an eye sore for you? whereas the Bible says we ought to forgive and even love our enemies UNCONDITIONALLY (greek word agape), slightly different message there - and ok so again, Christians in the past have mucked up, that's because we're ALL sinful!! To reach back to a point you brought up before, is the entirety of the Bible perfect or just the recent additions? Because God was definitely not about love and peace in the Old Testament. All the murder done – and condoned – in His name, as well as the carnage done by God Himself, would indicate the error of thinking that He encouraged His followers to love their enemies. So that brings up an interesting question. Why would He suddenly change his tune in the New Testament? Could it be, just maybe, that he’s implicitly admitting that he was wrong before? How can a perfect God be wrong? Or were the authors of the OT misguided, just like medieval Christians were in interpreting the Bible? Because there are some nasty stuff there. In case you’ve forgotten or ignored it, here are some sections that you might want to brush up on: Exodus 23:24, Deuteronomy 8:19, Deuteronomy 13:12-15, Exodus 22:20, Deuteronomy 14:6-10, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 (NIV), Leviticus 24:16, Acts 3:23. And to hell with it, I’ll add something from the New Testament as well: John 1:10-11. EDIT - Silly me, I completely forgot about the Book of Revelations! Yup, that is one giant love fest there, yesiree! Revelations: 1:7, 1:18, 2:16, 2:23, 6:2, 6:4, 6:8, 6:10-11, 9:4-6, 9:7-10, 9:15-19, 11:3-5, 11:6, 11:7, 11:8-12, 14:10-11, 14:19-20, 15:1, 15:7, 16:1-21, 17:16-17, 18:8, 18:8-9 , 19:11, 19:12-15, 19:20-21, 20:9-10, 20:15, 21:8. So . . . if we're all sinful, and God is perfect, then we also need to achieve perfection, in order to spend eternity with Him - we therefore need a sacrifice for us because whatever we offer could never be enough (we're sinful remember), which is why Jesus died on that cross. With that as Christians we have a PROMISE of salvation (Romans 10:9 - if you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you WILL be saved) whereas the closest Muslims get is "if you do everything the Q'oran says Allah MIGHT be merciful. Praise be to Allah." Quick paraphrase: Islam - literally "kill or be killed" Christianity - "believe, repent and receive guaranteed salvation" Do you know what “cherry-picking” means? Btw if I'm offending anyone here I apologise,p I think there are about a billion Muslims you need to apologize to. i don't mean to and I'm not lying, If you’re not lying, then you’re definitely being irrational. would love to be challenged because I'm seeking the truth!! If you were honestly seeking the truth, why didn’t you actually take it upon yourself to look up excerpts from the Koran that might prove you wrong? It seemed all you did was look at stuff that reinforced what you already thought about Muslims in the first place. That’s not the attitude of someone who is “seeking the truth.” Oh and PS - Yahweh isn't Allah because of what I said above - Yahweh is a forgiving God who, by His awesome forgiving fatherly agape love, has provided us with an easy Way, all we need to do is recognise it. (no rules here by the way, loving God literally is enough BUT grace abuse shows lack of understanding) Allah on the other hand commands that you follow his rules to even be in with a chance of any kind of salvation You might want to reconsider this given what I said above. Assuming, of course, that you don’t ignore or contort the points I brought up. - Aric
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Post by samdman on Mar 31, 2006 6:38:23 GMT -5
Ok well God must be perfect, otherwise He's not God and if God isn't perfect then in theory anyone could essentially get to that perfection status, removing "God" from His position as God which is just far too complicated to properly think about so yeah, nuff of that
If you're honestly saying the God of the OT is all killing death destruction etc you've obviously not actually read it and are just as you described "cherry picking" - the Old Testament is a promise of love, forgiveness and grace, which incidentally is the same as the New - alongside that Jesus Christ fulfilled hundreds of OT prophecies so I'm reckoning they're talking about the same thing
In regards to the infallibility of Scripture then I make the same offer here I made elsewhere - anyone find a historical inaccuracy, contradiction or anything that proves it's fallible in the Bible let me know and I'll personally give you equivalent of £500 (think it's about $1000 so gotta be worth it that's higher than minimum wage for a coupla minutes work, gotta be on Google hasn't it!?!!)
And again "cherry picking" with the Quran quotes - if you know it as well as you make out you do then you'll be well aware of the fact the teachings say kill all converts, Sura 9:73,74 is one place but I've not got enough time to find a whole bunch right now - maybe when I get a free hour or two to search I'll post a couple up but going away for the weekend so not much time - sorry!!
Also let me come back to infallibility of Scripture - as I said earlier there are NO cases in the Bible, yet there are several in the Quran - for example the Christian Trinity is quoted as being God the Father, God the Son and God the Mother (Mary) - sorry Mohammed, wrong there . . . Quran says the Egyptians used crucifixion, they didn't; says the Samaritans introduced the golden calf, they didn't - they didn't even exist until about 300 years later on - there are contradictions as well but as I say I must go now - can post Quranic references for those inaccuracies if necessary - I do have a Quran but I sometimes find it hard to find bits, the translation is very old fashioned and I can't find any newer ones!!
Oh and a quick PS - the whole seeking the truth thing - the Bible tells me to so if I was genuinely NOT seeking the truth surely I would have even closed my mind off to believing in the Bible as the Word of God, which would not be that clever . . . interestingly enough the Quran guards against asking too many questions and also reminds us that only Imams can properly understand and interpret what is written there, convenient . . .
lol AND my apology was there for a reason and like I said if I offend anyone I am genuinely sorry but I welcome people to question my faith, that's why it's faith!! If you say something that contradicts what I believe I receive the comment and will probably ignore it (as, I'm sure, would you) - however if you point out something that genuinely takes two things I believe and shows I contradict myself THEN it's important I ought to look at that area in more detail!!
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aric
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Post by aric on Apr 1, 2006 0:26:40 GMT -5
Ok well God must be perfect, otherwise He's not God Do you know what circular reasoning is? and if God isn't perfect then in theory anyone could essentially get to that perfection status, removing "God" from His position as God which is just far too complicated to properly think about so yeah, nuff of that I have no idea what you just said. Nor do I see how it is relevant to what the point of this thread was. This thread started out with you and Azonthus shamelessly parading your prejudice against Muslims. I came in and showed why there was no way either of you could rationally claim through the two holy books alone that Islam was only a religion of violence and Christianity only a religion of love since the Koran AND the Bible have both love/tolerance alongside murder and mayhem. If you're honestly saying the God of the OT is all killing death destruction etc you've obviously not actually read it and are just as you described "cherry picking" - the Old Testament is a promise of love, forgiveness and grace, which incidentally is the same as the New - alongside that Jesus Christ fulfilled hundreds of OT prophecies so I'm reckoning they're talking about the same thing *shakes head* I’m guessing you either have some severe reading comprehension problems or you’re off in your own little delusional world imagining that your debate opponents are making up arguments that you know how to answer. IF you had bothered to understand what I was saying, then you would know that I was NOT saying that the Bible or Christianity is nothing but a murderous system of belief. What I DID say was that there was no way you or Azonthus could objectively claim that Christianity was somehow better than Islam when it comes to dealing with non-believers since both texts have decrees demanding the murder of people who don’t follow God. But, just as I suspected you would, you completely missed the point of my argument. I can’t tell whether this is because you’re too stupid to understand what I’m saying or if you’re deliberately mischaracterizing my words so that you don’t actually have to respond in any responsible way to what I actually said. Another damning point that demonstrates your unwillingness (or inability?) to take my points head on in an honest and straightforward fashion is that the original point of contention of Muslims naturally being a bloodthirsty religion that is somehow not on the same level of Christianity in terms of tolerance is so obviously missing from your newest response in this post. I really would like an answer to this part. Or are you and Azonthus conceding that point? BTW, the spectacle of you selectively choosing the parts of my argument that you think you could counter and then accusing me of cherry-picking (of which I did not do, but you have done quite often) is quite amusing. In regards to the infallibility of Scripture then I make the same offer here I made elsewhere - anyone find a historical inaccuracy, contradiction or anything that proves it's fallible in the Bible let me know and I'll personally give you equivalent of £500 (think it's about $1000 so gotta be worth it that's higher than minimum wage for a coupla minutes work, gotta be on Google hasn't it!?!!) You might want to start a new thread for this, since this is really a thread hijack. If you want to wave your religious member around, then do it elsewhere. In any case, you completely ignored my question. How can fallible humans transliterate infallible knowledge? And simply proving or disproving alleged inconsistencies is irrelevant to the question. The simplistic proof that you used is irrational and doesn’t work. The only context in which it would work is if you were already inclined to believe in those presuppositions in the first place. I want you to explain how your reasoning works and not challenge others to try and break your wall of ignorance. And again "cherry picking" with the Quran quotes - if you know it as well as you make out you do then you'll be well aware of the fact the teachings say kill all converts, Sura 9:73,74 is one place but I've not got enough time to find a whole bunch right now - maybe when I get a free hour or two to search I'll post a couple up but going away for the weekend so not much time - sorry!! And your point is… what? The only thing I see you doing is mischaracterizing my argument into something that it’s not – presumably because you don’t know how to actually beat my real argument. It’s completely irrelevant if you can pull a million quotes from the Koran showing Allah telling Muslims to slaughter Christians and rape children and drink virgins’ blood. You portrayed the Koran in a way that made it seem as if it taught nothing but violence against non-muslims. I provided you examples where it did not. YOU WERE WRONG! Plain and simple. The thing with you is that rather than being a responsible and sane person and conceding on that particular point (although your deafening silence on that issue can be seen as a concession in and of itself), you instead chose to misconstrue my argument as being one that said Christianity was nothing but a violent religion and Islam was nothing but peaceful (which I did not say). Also let me come back to infallibility of Scripture - as I said earlier there are NO cases in the Bible, yet there are several in the Quran - for example the Christian Trinity is quoted as being God the Father, God the Son and God the Mother (Mary) - sorry Mohammed, wrong there . . . Quran says the Egyptians used crucifixion, they didn't; says the Samaritans introduced the golden calf, they didn't - they didn't even exist until about 300 years later on - there are contradictions as well but as I say I must go now - can post Quranic references for those inaccuracies if necessary - I do have a Quran but I sometimes find it hard to find bits, the translation is very old fashioned and I can't find any newer ones!! Oh and a quick PS - the whole seeking the truth thing - the Bible tells me to so if I was genuinely NOT seeking the truth surely I would have even closed my mind off to believing in the Bible as the Word of God, which would not be that clever . . . interestingly enough the Quran guards against asking too many questions and also reminds us that only Imams can properly understand and interpret what is written there, convenient . . . lol AND my apology was there for a reason and like I said if I offend anyone I am genuinely sorry but I welcome people to question my faith, that's why it's faith!! If you say something that contradicts what I believe I receive the comment and will probably ignore it (as, I'm sure, would you) - however if you point out something that genuinely takes two things I believe and shows I contradict myself THEN it's important I ought to look at that area in more detail!! To be honest, I don’t really care. This is not what I was arguing. If you want to continue masturbating to your theological issues, then fine. But the reason I entered in this argument seems to have been forgotten (or ignored – I guess that’s what you’re good at) by you. I brought up the issue of God changing his mind because I wanted to know how you reconciled the bloodthirsty passages I cited with the parts of the New Testament that do happen to be decent and humanitarian. As your post showed, you didn’t even bother to address this point. Instead, you simply plowed ahead with your strawmen and continued to act as if the state of the argument at my third response was one about Islam being loving/tolerant and Christianity being bloodthirsty as opposed to what I had actually argued about neither religions being substantially better in terms of violence towards non-believers. - Aric
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