One more link between dinosaurs and birds Oct 2, 2005 1:51:26 GMT -5
Post by aric on Oct 2, 2005 1:51:26 GMT -5
vorchia said:Well thats due to it being Az's board, she's as creationist as they get and netiquette has it that you don't insult the admin.
Over at stardestroyer.net, you can insult ANYONE, as long as it's the icing on an argument. However, if you insult or flame for it's own sake (trolling) or question the abilities of the admins and mods, then you get warned or banned. I personally go by this, so if any of you have an argument and want to emphasis it by spicing it up a bit (no full-on swearing, though) then I personally wouldn't mind.
vorchia said:I could try to convince creationists but its little use. They are so convinced of it that any argument about it is painful to them. I might do it if they start biblethumping me a concussion but then it'd be in self defense!!! ;D
I don't recall my arguments ever being painful. That seems to indicate they get distressed or saddened. In my experience, they get angry because they don't like the idea that they might be wrong.
vorchia said:I know, its the whole faith being stronger then fact thing... Besides if you're constantly being told so several times a week in church you start to believe it. Especially if you think it'll get you to hell if you don't.
The indoctrination helps, but you have to be taught a certain way to think. That is what allows people to think religiously. I know people who were skeptics from when they were very young; people who never bought the Sunday school schtick.
vorchia said:But of all the logic in nature evolution is the easiest to understand... Surely anyone can see the way it works??
Heh. That's because it's the best way to explain things naturalistically. However, I've run into many a creationist who said that they couldn't imagine complex life evolving from amoebas. Even though it's not that hard to see that we're clearly compound organisms that are made up of tons of unicellular organisms that are working together.
vorchia said:Well THAT happens all the time. How often do people go with the flow without any conscious thought or reasoning of their own? In science as much as in other things people like to go with the flow without a thought... I've always hated that.
The problem with it here is that since they might not understand WHY evolution works, they can be more easily argued into disbelieving it. This wouldn't happen to anyone who actually understands how evolution and science work.
vorchia said:I like to question. I like to be a skeptic. You don't want to know what kind of reactions I have had when I for instance dared to openly disagree with just about any theory of the infamous dr Bakker.
vorchia said:;D Those were the days... Too bad I had to quit these arguments and their likes (like the evolution thing, I loved those evolution debates) but I had to quit or let my opinions put what few friendships I could find, at a risk.
I'd like to think Az and I can still be friendly even though we're diametrically opposed to each other in this regard (and perhaps a few others as well).
vorchia said:Ok, I'm a loser coward or just plain indecisive... Should or should I NOT debate over science I like when some of my friends do NOT like it?? Its not like I've been good with it as of lately, stop putting up so much bait I cannot possibly resist! lol
There are ways of hedging what you say. For instance, you might point out that people can believe whatever they want. They just shouldn't claim that it's scientific even though it may not be. Especially if we're talking about actual science.
vorchia said:So I noticed. lol It does strike me as weird, how do they explain antibioticum resistant bacterium strains? I asked Az about it once and she said she didn't think there was an increase in antibiotics resistance in bacteria but there is! We all know MRSA for instance.
That and there's a new flu virus every year because it keeps shifting the proteins on the outside of the virus. This could not be possible it it had been created as 'the unchangable perfect creation of God: Influenzavirus'.
I could give a hundred examples of the constant changes that go on in nature that do not go with the creationist point of view... You can't have biological system (or any system) being static. But I need not tell you that.
Yeah, obviously you don't have to tell me that.
From what I understand, some of the more sophisticated creationists say that they acknowledge "micro-evolution", i.e. observable evolution in the lab, but not "macro-evlution," the stuff where complex species transmutates into others over time.
Of course, being a scientist yourself, this is a ridiculous notion. The process that works on bacteria is the same that works on larger organisms. To borrow an analogy from another board, saying that micro-evolution and macro-evolution are different and distinct is like saying that micro-erosion and macro-erosion are different. It's like saying that a river that washes away shorelines will never carve out canyons.
vorchia said:Deffinately. If they do look for a 'perfect creation by God as God is perfect and would not create anything with flaws', would that perfection not be beautifully illustrated in the way everything manages to survive and work in an ecosystem despite the constant change of environmental facors?
How dare you use rational logic!!!
Besides, any engineer or scientist can tell you nature IS NOT perfect. The human knee is an accident waiting to happen, for instance. I've heard engineers say that whoever designed humans was a moron.
vorchia said:And if nothing could change, we'd all die of the flu or any other micro-organisms as our immunsystems would not be able to synthesise a new immunoglobulin to fight the new flu virus with... The whole adaptive immunesystem would not exist (or even be needed) if 'God creations' were static. And yes we'd be pretty extinct without it but according to creationism we can't get extinct because we're perfect creations...
It's funny that Az joked in another thread that creationists don't believe in adaptation, therefore there's no reason for them to change their minds. It's even funnier when you consider that Christianity itself changes as well.