Sex & Dinotopia

[Azonthus]

stefan de velociraptor
sex and the saurians
Fri Oct 31 05:07:59 2003
203.221.74.46

I've noticed quite a few people have begun using hybrids in their stories and this is an interesting little point. on a civilised dinotopia what part would courtship and mating play in a saurian's life? do saurians partner for life, or is mating a 'fire and forget' style encounter. do dinosaurs view sex in the same way as humans? do they even get pleasure out of it? and also, could different species of related dinosaur mate? and even if they could, would they? because of simple instinct or even culture that dictates same species coupling? it is an interesting topic, but a slightly mature one. hopefully I haven't insulted anyone. I know that this board is for everyone and this might be termed an m15+ topic, but I personaly believe that there's absolutely no point in concealing the birds and the bees, so long as you don't use them to harm someone. ignorance is pain.

anyone got any ideas on the subject?
stefan
BD,SP
know thineself
never underestimate the power of one


Vira
Everyone's using hybrids now?...
Fri Oct 31 15:41:08 2003
66.96.70.40

*blinks* Yeesh, hybrids become famous really fast. I've been a hybrid for almost as long as I've been here. For about three months I was just a regular Velociraptor but I really wanted to be something bigger and I'd never heard of a raptor species larger than Deinonychus, so I made myself a Deinonychus-Velociraptor Hybrid.

Just recently I learned of Utahraptor (embarassing, since it's been known of longer than I've been here, only 4 years starting in summer 2004) and it was about the size that I wanted so I changed my species to a Utahraptor-Deinonychus hybrid.

As for the reason I am a hybrid, my parents' parents wanted peace between their clans, so they had their two youngest children become mates and then I was born. It wasn't a question of whether they wanted it or not.

For other species, I'm guessing that they just like like the other a lot. Dinosaurs are dinosaurs, just as humans are humans. A African might marry a Caucasian just as I suspect any Raptor might mate with a Gallimimus, for instance. It's just a matter of whether or not they have feelings for one another and whether or not they are prejudiced against the other species/race.

But then, as is sad, they sometimes have to put up with people/saurians who hate hybrids/inter-racial children. It's a very, very sad thing and something Vira had to go through, being a hybrid, and still has to go through with some of more...instinctually-inclined of the Rainy Basin carnivores.

So I think that the dinosaurs mate simply because they have strong feelings for one another. Perhaps the only pleasure they get out of it is the knowledge that they are going to have a child and the raising and protecting of that child.

I think it's more of a "the female is in heat" type of thing and they are inclined to mate because it is that 'season'. I don't think they view it in the same way as humans. It's something they have to do if they want future generations to go on.

Where as, with humans, they just feel inclined to do it whenever they want. I mean, you've never heard of a dinosaur 'raping' another dinosaur, have you? I think it's something that happens when the time is right, when the dinosaur is mature enough.


"and also, could different species of related dinosaur mate? and even if they could, would they?"

Different species of related dinosaur mate? I assume you mean something like a Deinonychus and a Utahraptor, both of the same order: Coelurosauria (not 'raptoria'--which isn't even an order-as many believe) but of a different species. I'm sure that they can mate and maybe not with our dinosaurs of the past, but the ones on Dinotopia, I'm sure they would.

And this is where I have to differ with Paleontologist Robert T. Bakker's book. I agree that dinosaurs probably wouldn't have interbred when they lived, but I do not think that the hatchling would die simply because one was a suborder of another species.

I mean, we don't see children dying when their parents are of two different races, do we? And we don't see mixed-bred puppies and kittens dying because their parents bred with a cat of another species of cat.

"because of simple instinct or even culture that dictates same species coupling?"


Hmm...well, I'm not sure. Like I said before, dinosaurs of other species might not have interbred back then (but I do believe that some were genetically altered because of my religious beliefs and I believe there are 'hybrids' of dinosaurs that some we may have or not have, as of yet, dug up, but I won't go into that, er, not any farther anyway) but on Dinotopia, I'm sure they will.

And as it is Science Fiction anyway (I'm sorry to pop everyone's bubbles here), rules can be bent and broken. ^_^

Anyway, thanks for the question, Stefan, it requires some thought and it's nice to have questions like that for a change.

BD, SP,
~Vira

Storm
This is the best post in the thread!
Fri Oct 31 15:47:56 2003
24.103.87.124

You explained what I was trying to say,and made it better!Great Ogthar,I'm bad at explaining things!


Vira
lol,
Fri Oct 31 15:53:00 2003
66.96.70.40

Hey, I think you explained it just fine. I just babble on and on about everything. I'm bad at that. If you saw me in rl, you'd have a hard time keeping track of my conversations until you got used to it.

My rl friend and I would be talking about one subject and suddenly I'd jump into another one and then come back to the same one suddenly and then shoot off to another and then another and then I'd go back to the second one...I'd have eighty or more conversations that had been started and never got finished by the end of the day. My rl friend has gotten so used to it; I can just say something suddenly the next day from the precious, and she'll know immediately (or sometimes 'almost immediately' as I can be very confusing) what I'm talking about.

BD, SP,
~Vira

Storm
same here!
Fri Oct 31 15:58:33 2003
24.103.87.124

I can talk nostop when I want to,and when I don't want to.Sometimes I'm thinking about something like my B-day,and I'll say to my mom:"I think we should have yellow streamers on the chandelir",and she won't have an idea what I'm talking about.

Vira
lol,
Fri Oct 31 17:49:01 2003
66.96.70.40

Yeah, I get the same reaction with my parents. *laughs*

BD, SP,
~Vira


Storm
Re: sex and the saurians
Fri Oct 31 08:51:39 2003
24.103.87.124

I think saurians in the "civilised" parts veiw it as humans normally do:something that they'd like,but not as important as it must be too the basiners.After all,the rainy basin is a pretty harsh place and the sooner you have babies,the more you have in the future,and the chance is increased that your genes will make it into the next generation.

I have a feeling they do mate for life,since there so intelligent and everything.I don't think they care much about sex though.

about different species of dinosaurs mating,I'd have to compare it to two people from completely different backgrounds marrying,such as a woman from Ireland marrying a man from italy.And the chick would-should-be okay if the parents are similar.Hopefully.

[Azonthus]

Stouthorn
Great topic
Fri Oct 31 12:17:20 2003
209.49.43.10

Stefan:
"on a civilised dinotopia what part would courtship and mating play in a saurian's life?"

Mating: probably as much as it does to humans, maybe more. Most saurians only have one successful birth, I believe the first book says, and so eggs are very important.
Courtship: Well that all depends on how they view "love" and mating. Courtship always dictates which males are able to pass along their genes, but I'm assuming you mean it in a romantic sense, and not solely in puffing up your feathers to impress females.

"do saurians partner for life, or is mating a 'fire and forget' style encounter?"
Cultural. I'm sure some mate for life and others don't. Hell, some humans mate for life and others don't, but with saurians I don't mean divorce. The nature of saurian children on Dinotopia, that is, that they're rare, probably makes parenting very important, and so I'm sure saurian parents are very involved with each and every one of their offspring. That doesn't mean, however, that each offspring has the same set of parents. They aren't humans.

"do dinosaurs view sex in the same way as humans?"

What way is that?

"do they even get pleasure out of it?"

Probably. Many animal species experience orgasm, if I'm to believe what I read.

"and also, could different species of related dinosaur mate?"

I suppose they could engage in the sexual act, but they probably wouldn't.

"because of simple instinct or even culture that dictates same species coupling?"

I think this would go along the lines of instince dictating culture. Interspecies coupling doesn't really make a whole lot of sense genetically, and so cultures probably developed so it was taboo.

Storm:
"something that they'd like,but not as important as it must be too the basiners"
Makes sense.

"I have a feeling they do mate for life,since there so intelligent and everything.I don't think they care much about sex though."

Intelligence and mating for life don't really have a whole lot to do with one another

"about different species of dinosaurs mating,I'd have to compare it to two people from completely different backgrounds marrying,such as a woman from Ireland marrying a man from italy.And the chick would-should-be okay if the parents are similar.Hopefully."

The reason that this doesn't work is because a man from Italy and a woman from Ireland are still both Homo sapiens sapiens. We don't have to worry about what it would be like to grow up as a chick born of parents of seperate species, because it's an impossibility. A Triceratops could not father a child by a Stegosaur any more than I could father a child by a tiger, no matter how hard I tried. Or we could get even more similar: Let's say a Triceratops and a Styracosaur wanted to have a child. They might produce one, but it would likely end up with defects, not the least of which would be sterility. Just look at what happens when we crossbreed animals of two different similar species in real life: mules.

That's not to say, of course, that two dinosaurs of different species couldn't become romantically involved.

Or wierder still, what about Dinosaurs and Humans?

By the way, Stefan, thanks for bringing up this topic. A serious topic of discussion about Dinotopia has been lacking for a VERY long time here.

-Stouthorn

Jersey
My opinion
Fri Oct 31 14:08:47 2003
63.154.76.55

Dinosaurs and humans would not be that strange in my views. Why you might ask? Well my character Jersey, who I go by, is half human half dragon. Bother her parents are that way as well half human half dragon. Jersey's father, Tiune, was one of the first hybrid's of that kind. Tiune's father, Drake, fell in, love with a human girl. Even I can't explain how they had kids, I believe through magic and the like. I seriously doubt a dinosaur and human could have a child, it looks utterly impossible from scientific ideals. But one can never know can we?

I also believe that two similar dinosaurs could indeed mate and produce a child. Lions and Tigers produce offspring called Ligers, only defect I can think of is that the cub would be sterile.

As far as wether a dinosaur would like having sex, I look at one animal that lives today. It's a mammal therefore it is nothing like a dinosaur, but I found out that dolphins like to feel the pleasure of sex just as much as humans do( sorry I find that interesting). Dolphins are intelligent animals and the dinosaurs in Dinotopia are as well. I just put two to two together.

Well once again I have done a good deal of ranting, I'm starting to do it a little to much me thinks Well toodles!

Jersey

Storm
*sigh*I knew I should have been clearer on that.....
Fri Oct 31 13:07:01 2003
24.103.87.124

....when I said "because their intelligent"I meant that they would probably mate like most humans do:mating to someone they love,as in human love.

And I was only comparing Stouthorn.Yes,they are both Homo Sapien Sapien,But it is vaugely similar.Like Velociraptors and Troodons for instanse,they look slightly different,but they could probably do it.

Lions and Tigers can mate,and they don't even look similar!

I rest my case.

Enit
...
Fri Oct 31 15:15:37 2003
65.96.74.230

There is one problem though... Say a man from Africa and a women from say china get together, go the whole nine yards and have a kid, the kid is still the same species as the adults, but say a veloceraptor and a troodon, they are seperate species therefore if if they did somehow have a sexual relationship they still wouldn't be able to have a kid who can sexually reproduce, meaning they're sterile...

A mule is a horse and an ass, and its sterile... A tiger and a lion getting together, as jersey said , a liger, is sterile...

So sure i think two seperate dinosaur species could have a kid, but whats the point?? in an evolutionary stance it doesn't make any sense because the parent is not ensuring the servival of its genes, which defeats the whole perpose of sex in the first place, to ensure that the animals gens are passed on...

So if there is a hybrid, a genetic mix-up, then it was probbly a mistake which came out of two dinosaurs of seperate species having sex for pleasurable purposes...

Breathe Deep, Seek peace

Good Topic Stefan...

~Enit

P.S. HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!


Vira
I'm a genetic mix-up?! Waaaahhhhh!!!!!!
Fri Oct 31 18:09:58 2003
66.96.70.40

*sits down and cries*

Just kidding, just kidding. ^_^

Hey, remember, this is sci-fi. Rules can be bent and they are bent to fit the purposes of someone's needs.

Have you ever heard of a plant that, when made into tea, can and does extend a human's life to equal or exceed that of a dinosaur's?

Nope...but that doesn't mean it's not impossible, right?

The same with interbreeding dinosaurs. Just because we haven't/don't see it happen, doesn't mean it couldn't. ^_^

BD, SP,
~Vira

stefan de velociraptor
yet there is no scientific evidence that the plant could
Fri Oct 31 19:13:04 2003
210.9.241.18

not exist, whereas darwin's theories dictate that animals are termed as different 'species' when they can no longer produce viable offspring because of mismatching chromosomes

for example, humans and chimps. we really should be able to mate, our genetic code is only about 1% different, yet evidently we can't, because many chromosomes do not link when our DNA is paired with that of a chimp.

as for the whole different races of people, all humans in the world belong to the same species (homo sapiens), genus (primate) and order (mammalia), so no human is from a different species to another and can hence produce viable offspring with any other human. whereas the troodontids were different species. in any case, I really don't see how a velociraptor (chickensized) could mate with a utaraptor (larger than human sized) without one or the other either dying or getting so stepped on that they just give up and go home

with the whole 'but romance could exist', I do not doubt it, but the sexual side of the love would be repressed because of an animal's natural tendency to only look at it's own as 'beautiful' in a lustful sense. eg, you'd look at a guy having hairy legs in a different way to seeing a tarantula with hairy legs. Get the picture? also, the bain looks at a potential mate by singling out the good properties in a potential match, and naturaly another species could not provide in this respect


Vira
Velociraptors aren't chicken sized...
Fri Oct 31 19:18:35 2003
66.96.70.40

Unless I'm mistaken or there is a species of Velociraptor that size. I know compsognathus is chicken-size. But Velociraptor was six feet long and about three feet tall. That's as long as an adult human and about the height of a child.

Yeah, I can't see Velociraptor and Utahraptor maiting either. Far too much a size difference. That's why I'm Deinonychus-Utahraptor. I think it'd be hillariously funny to see a Utahraptor trying to breed with a Velociraptor (I am not trying to be sick, I just got a hillarious image in my head, that's all).

BD, SP,
~Vira


Vira
Shoot, forgot the whole point of my post there....
Fri Oct 31 19:24:22 2003
66.96.70.40

Anyway, I was going to reply to what you said about scientific evidence and all. I was going to say I have to agree with you there if you want to look at it from a scientific nature (I look at it from a biblical nature usually).

But what about the mixed breeds of dogs? They're all dogs, but their pups are still able to breed.

And...there is no scientific evidence saying that dinosaurs couldn't interbreed and still have children who bred. Remember that dinosaurs are far different creatures than scientists at first believed.

They were reptellian and bird-like in appearance. The reptilian part of them made paleontologists/scientists think that dinosaurs were slow and stupid. And paleontologists are finding out newer and newer things about the dinosaurs all the time.

BD, SP,
~Vira

[Azonthus]

Stouthorn
Re: Shoot, forgot the whole point of my post there....
Sat Nov 1 20:31:52 2003
24.90.15.176

"I was going to say I have to agree with you there if you want to look at it from a scientific nature (I look at it from a biblical nature usually)."

Hey, remember: God created science. If God is the creator of all things than it's because of Him that our chromosomes line up the way they do, and it's because of Him that a mule can't breed.

"But what about the mixed breeds of dogs? They're all dogs, but their pups are still able to breed."

But that's precisely because, as you said, they're all dogs. Every single dog in existence, from the largest Great Dane to the tiniest Chihuaha, is classified as Canus lupus. They're all the same species. A German Shepherd looks different from a Dalmation because they were bred to, but the differences are no greater than that between a person of Chinese decent and one of Ethiopian decent.

"And...there is no scientific evidence saying that dinosaurs couldn't interbreed and still have children who bred. Remember that dinosaurs are far different creatures than scientists at first believed."

But they were still real creatures in a real world. Chances are they played by the same rules as all other creatures do

Amber the Velociraptor
Dino breeding
Mon Nov 3 06:59:59 2003
212.250.100.13

Stouthorn has a point. All the different sopecies of dogs areall canis lupus, and all the races of humans are homo Sapiens, but Utahraptor and Deinonychus (can't remember the second parts of their names)are two SEPARATE species. So, if they diod mate and havbe young, they would [robably be sterile. In biology, a cspecies is defined as animals that can reproduce and produce FERTILE offspring. Humans and chimps are similar, but different enough to be separeate species. So are horses and asses.....the sterile mule they produce proving the point.

BD, RF, SP,

Amber

Storm
Dogs and Wolfs can *breed* (nm)
Sat Nov 1 21:13:41 2003
24.103.87.124


Stouthorn
Canis lupus!
Sat Nov 1 21:40:45 2003
24.90.15.176

Dogs and wolves are both Canis lupus. Lupus means wolf.


Storm
Oh.*sheepish grin*
Sat Nov 1 22:18:24 2003
24.103.87.124

But still,hybrids DO happen.Remember Ligers here.

Enit
But...
Sat Nov 1 23:36:27 2003
65.96.74.230

But they cannot breed... so if you were to ahve a hybrid that hybrid cannot have kids...

BD SP

~Enit


Stormy
who says they would have kids? (nm)
Sun Nov 2 00:59:48 2003
24.103.87.124


Stouthorn
Is it really...
Sun Nov 2 15:49:08 2003
24.90.15.176

Is it really fair to have a kid when you know for certain that that kid will have a serious defect?


Storm
*shrugs*Maybe there;'s a herb on Dinotopia....
Sun Nov 2 15:54:06 2003
24.103.87.124

...that prevents things like that.

Enit
Hmm..
Sun Nov 2 17:36:26 2003
65.96.74.230

Well maybe you could solve the problem by not interbreeding...

BD SP

~Enit

I personally don't quite understand why there are so many hybrids... to be honest i think its much more fascinating when people are different species of dinosuar, insteed of dinosaur MUTTS...

BD SP

~Enit

Enit
Not to mention that...
Sun Nov 2 17:37:48 2003
65.96.74.230

It would be a genetic mutation, so theoreticlaly a plant could not cure it...

BD SP

~Enit

Storm
theoreticlaly.
Sun Nov 2 20:10:19 2003
24.103.87.124

That doesn't mean it can't.I cannot believe it,I decide to just use ONE hybrid in my stories and this is what I get!


Enit
...
Mon Nov 3 05:44:27 2003
65.96.74.230

We weren't talking about your stpory, we were talking about the science behind hybrids... I see nothing in the above posts about your story....

BD SP

~Enit

Croco and Speedwing
Dusting off a past topic: Dinotopian sex...
Wed Nov 5 14:26:28 2003
209.104.139.221

Wow! I can't believe I missed out on a topic that I've been wanting to get in my opinion on but have been hesitant to do so for fear of rejection. In other words...I've been wanting to ask the question on Dinotopian sex for so long but was afraid of not being taking seriously or dismissed as a pervert.

But as for sex on Dinotopia, I wouldn't have any reason to believe that it is not the same as it is here in the Outside World, where mates are (hopefully) chosen for life and children/hatchlings are few and far between at least in civilized Dinotopian society. Saying that, I believe that the saurians do have sex on a regular basis, even if the result isn't the production of a new life, as Storm so masterfully pointed out. (No, you do not just mindlessly babble, that was a good point you made!) Let me go along with some of the arguments she made.

I think saurians in the "civilised" parts veiw it as humans normally do:something that they'd like,but not as important as it must be too the basiners.

Yes, I believe that is indeed true. Civilized saurians view sex in the same manner as their human contemperaries...as a way to establish a strong emotional bond between their partner(s). I say partner(s) like that because I have no idea if saurians have multiple sexual partners like some humans do. And yes, I feel that saurians get as much pleasure out of it as humans do. After all, if it didn't feel at least SOMEWHAT good, then why even bother doing it in the first place?

I have a feeling they do mate for life,since there so intelligent and everything.I don't think they care much about sex though.

I have to agree and disagree with that at the same time. I agree in the sense that because Dinotopian saurians are so intelligent, they have stronger feelings and emotions and so they choose a mate and stay with them. However, I have to disagree in the fact that I think saurians do care enough about sex to know when that need is being ignored. I learned in a psychology class that there are several basic needs that humans need, and one of those basic needs was sex. What about the saurians who have mates that travel a lot, like the poor protos that would've taken Bix or Chaz as their mates? Since they're always on the go, then their mates would be tempted to look elsewhere to satisfy that basic need in their lives.

about different species of dinosaurs mating,I'd have to compare it to two people from completely different backgrounds marrying,such as a woman from Ireland marrying a man from italy.

I'll agree with that in the sense that two dinosaurs of different species COULD mate, but they'd have use special precautions in order to prevent serious injuries to one or both parties. But this is where I thought that I'd get in trouble: what about sex between a human and a dinosaur? I know that it's a given fact that they could never reproduce together, and that fact alone makes the idea tempting. Of course, only the smaller saurians could engage in this kind of practice, like raptors and ostrich-saurs...and Protoceratops.

I was in the midst of writing "The Legend of Croco Hallaway" and I came to a part where Croco had a dream that he had sex with a Protoceratops named Castra, only she was in human form. First off, I know for a fact that Castra's mother, who just happens to be Bix herself, would frown on such behavior...but since this is a G-rated board, I won't go into details about the thoughts that I have had about her and the young Will Denison...and I'm probably sure that there are more of you that have had similar thoughts but don't wanna admit it. But knowing the pride and honor Bix has, she would never THINK of doing anything on that level, so that settles that.

If you have any thoughs, questions, comments, feedback, or just wanna tell me how completely outta my mind I am, either do it here or send me an e-mail. I'll leave my address at the top. Have fun!!!


Breathe Deep, Fly High!!!
Croco and Speedwing

Minstelae
Re: Sex & Dinotopia
11/12/03 11:21 am
209.104.139.221

Hmm, one thing I must point out... someone talked about this like it would be the same thing as human interracial relationships for two entirely different species of dinosaur to reproduce, and that's not true.

Although we have many different "races," we are all the same species. It's the same concept as dogs. You have many different "breeds," but they are all the same exact species, and technically, unless you have a problem with the size of the dog, they can all reproduce with one another, producing mixed breeds. It's the same way with humans. We can all reproduce and in so doing, create mixed-race children. So we're all the same species.

As to dinosaurs... even Deinonychs and Utahraptors are different species, and it is highly unlikely (supposedly) that the two can reproduce, and actually create offspring, although I certainly have no problem with using hybrids in a storyline. But hmm... I would think that dinosaurs would have both rational feelings and instinctual ones, and would probably be more likely to choose their kind. That's not to say that this isn't a possibility... it's just far more unlikely than it's become on the OMB.

Ovira
What the heck...
(1/31/04 6:03 pm)
212.142.15.101

Ok, I admit I've had a few glasses of wine but...
*rubs eyes* Oye its still there... I don't think I'm that tipsy. lol
I'm going to have to read this thing..... lol
And how did it get pinned on TOP anyway, I thought the most recent posted in thread (please forgive the bilingual one that she still doesn't know how to spell that) was on top... Ah well.